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Rank these SG peaks

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Post#16 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:45 am by Shot Clock

Rapcity_11 wrote:
Black Feet wrote:Wade was nothing more than an above average defender, the fact that he's never made all nba 1st d team is very telling. Also all these years are in the hand check era except for Wade. To me 03 Kobe and TMac are clearly above Wade, the rest are interchangeable.


The only thing telling about all-d teams is how ridiculous the voting panel is.

Agreed, I have no doubt Kobe makes first team again this year. A guy who good coaches like Popovitch ran a play to get a game winning shot off Kobe's young assignment rather then his obvious options, because he knew it was his best option.

People claim Kobe is a good "man" defender but he's not, he's a good on the ball defender. Man to man defense requires attention to your assignment and Kobe is like watching children play soccer they all gravitate to the ball.
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Post#17 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:10 am by The Infamous1

2003 Kobe is one of the most complete players I've ever season. Scoring, passing, defense, rebounding, etc. That was the year he perfected the game of basketball.

And lol at kobe not being a good man defender, this is classic revionist history
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Post#18 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:04 am by G35

SoulInTheHole7 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:1. 03 T-Mac
2. 09 Wade
3. 03 Kobe
4. 92 Drexler
5. 01 VC

4 and 5 are pretty clear, it's really the top 3 that are hard to rank. But I don't think 03 is Kobe's peak anyway, which made the decision a little easier. I'd say 08 was Kobe's peak.


Kobe has like 4 diff possible peaks bro lol.

I'd say peak Kobe is either 03, 06, or 07. But there's so many arguments, and none are really wrong.

Wade, Carter, Mac, and Drexler all have clear peak years.

But then again, that's the reason why Kobe is greater than all of them.



True words.

Kobe is an outlier because compared to these other guys for various reasons:

For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.

Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.

If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....
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Post#19 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:14 pm by MacGill

For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.


*Sigh* Why do the pro-Kobe supporters always choose to leave out the benefits of playing along side a prime Shaq? And what that did to positively impact Kobe's game? And it is not like Shaq never had to share the rock with Kobe as well who just happens to be #2 all-time in FG%.

Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.


Right, which is something you value right? Mike James once avergaed over 20PPG for my Raptors but everyone knew that wasn't going to be the receipe for success. Again, playing with good teammates also has many advantages and provides support for Kobe to impact the game in other area's. It shouldn't always come back to whether or not he could score a few more ppg now.

Outside of peak, look how the rest of the listed SG's are ranked because of that same lack of success in the post season.

If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....


Well in all honesty, outside of peak years which is only a portion of overall ranking it really is only Kobe and MJ but there is still clear seperation between the 2 regardless of which version of him you want to place where.
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Post#20 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:10 pm by ardee

'03 Kobe is the wrong year to pick as his peak, he was at his best in either '06, '07 or '08, to me choosing any year outside of those three as his peak would require a lot of thought behind it. Personally I lean '08, but I can see the argument for the other two very easily. So if we're talking actual peaks and not the years you listed:

Kobe
Wade
McGrady
Drexler
Carter
SSOL

G: Steve Nash(2005-07)
G: Joe Dumars(1989-91)
F: Glen Rice(1996-98)
F: Dirk Nowitzki(2009-11)
C: Robert Parish(1981-83)

Bench

G: Tony Parker(2012-14)
G: Raja Bell(2006-08)
F: Paul Pressey(1985-87)
F: Terry Cummings(1984-86)
C: Alvan Adams(1980-82)
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Post#21 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:11 pm by JordansBulls

SoulInTheHole7 wrote:03 Kobe
09 Wade
03 T-Mac
01 VC
92 Drexler

Rank them.

I'm guessing 01 VC is gonna be dead last on everyone's list.

I think all of them get further than the 2nd round on the Lakers in 2003 with Shaq on the squad.
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Post#22 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:54 pm by G35

MacGill wrote:
For much of his physical prime he shared or was #2 to Shaq pushing subjugating his numbers. Any other SG including MJ would not be posting peak numbers playing next to Shaq.


*Sigh* Why do the pro-Kobe supporters always choose to leave out the benefits of playing along side a prime Shaq? And what that did to positively impact Kobe's game? And it is not like Shaq never had to share the rock with Kobe as well who just happens to be #2 all-time in FG%.

Kobe gets criticized for being on stacked teams but that means he doesn't get to put up historic/peak type seasons because he has to play within the team (for the most part) because the team is actually trying to win a championship. Compared to 09 Wade/01 Carter/03 TMac, those teams didn't have to share the ball as much as Kobe has had to.


Right, which is something you value right? Mike James once avergaed over 20PPG for my Raptors but everyone knew that wasn't going to be the receipe for success. Again, playing with good teammates also has many advantages and provides support for Kobe to impact the game in other area's. It shouldn't always come back to whether or not he could score a few more ppg now.

Outside of peak, look how the rest of the listed SG's are ranked because of that same lack of success in the post season.

If you put 2003ish or 04ish Kobe on the 2008-2010 Lakers i think he would blow this other guys away and it would be much clearer that the only competition would be him and MJ.....


Well in all honesty, outside of peak years which is only a portion of overall ranking it really is only Kobe and MJ but there is still clear seperation between the 2 regardless of which version of him you want to place where.



Watching NFL redzone so I'm replying in short bursts. I do think there was a huge benefit to playing with Shaq. Kobe did have the advantage of playing off a dominant force. However just like the Harden situation that doesn't mean Kobe couldn't have grown without Shaq. But for whatever advantage Kobe had at not being doubled/tripled or the focus of scouting you can't deny playing with Shaq did not supress Kobe's aggregate numbers. And yes those counting numbers do count. Everything is not per 36 or RAPM.

I look at Kobe's situation and I think blending your talent onto a championship team and STILL being a dominant MVP type player counts for more than someone who just put together an elite statistical season.

I agree with you that playing with good teammates is a benefit but you can't act like it also isn't a detriment. Look at Dominique vs Worthy. Equal talents but one got the benefit of being the #1 guy while the other was part of a dynasty.

Kobe going to a franchise without Shaq would mean that he would have had a team built around his talents like Jordan, Lebron, Wade, McGrady had done for them. It doesn't just go one way for the Kobe haters......
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Post#23 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:19 pm by MacGill

Watching NFL redzone so I'm replying in short bursts. I do think there was a huge benefit to playing with Shaq. Kobe did have the advantage of playing off a dominant force. However just like the Harden situation that doesn't mean Kobe couldn't have grown without Shaq. But for whatever advantage Kobe had at not being doubled/tripled or the focus of scouting you can't deny playing with Shaq did not supress Kobe's aggregate numbers. And yes those counting numbers do count. Everything is not per 36 or RAPM.


I never said he wouldn't have not grown without Shaq but being able to grow under that specific situation is very favorable to Mr. Bryant. I mean GOAT coach, best player in the league, that is a silver spoon if I ever seen it as far as an ideal situation, right.

Not to mention how it allowed Kobe to focus in much more defensively. It certainly comes as no surprise that most quote early 00 Kobe as the best ever defensively. He didn't have to exert as much energy as he did later on, and it showed from that standpoint.

Who brought PER or RAPM into this discussion?

Kobe still got off 20+ FGA's per game playing with Shaq who also helped out with his efficiency, much like Dwight now. It just opens up the floor. While I have no problems saying that Kobe or Shaq for that matter could have increased offensive production I am not sold that an increase for Kobe in offensive possessions means:

a) with good efficiency
b) leads to what you score very high and that is same team success.

I look at Kobe's situation and I think blending your talent onto a championship team and STILL being a dominant MVP type player counts for more than someone who just put together an elite statistical season.


I certainly agree with you here and was what I was alluding too. However, when you were saying well playing with Shaq meant a decrease in what he was truly capable of that is what drew the red flags for me on a & b.

I agree with you that playing with good teammates is a benefit but you can't act like it also isn't a detriment. Look at Dominique vs Worthy. Equal talents but one got the benefit of being the #1 guy while the other was part of a dynasty.


And both fail in comparison to Kobe here, right? And this is why I hate the argument of what Kobe may have been able to do more of without Shaq because of the overall impact Shaq had on the game.

Kobe going to a franchise without Shaq would mean that he would have had a team built around his talents like Jordan, Lebron, Wade, McGrady had done for them. It doesn't just go one way for the Kobe haters......


Yep, and then we go right back to your point of possible higher individual numbers vs blending talent on championship team and we know which one you value more ;).

Remember the other way for Kobe could have also been like some of the poorer success records (playoffs) that you also like to bring up about some other the other leagues superstars: KG/Nash's etc. So as you state, he accomplished what he did given the team make-up during that period and to me the pro's of that outweigh the smaller potential of increase of some indidvidual metrics.
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Post#24 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:35 pm by G35

MacGill wrote:
Yep, and then we go right back to your point of possible higher individual numbers vs blending talent on championship team and we know which one you value more ;).

Remember the other way for Kobe could have also been like some of the poorer success records (playoffs) that you also like to bring up about some other the other leagues superstars: KG/Nash's etc. So as you state, he accomplished what he did given the team make-up during that period and to me the pro's of that outweigh the smaller potential of increase of some indidvidual metrics.



Well then we are mixing apples and oranges then.

Are we going to include team results when evaluating peaks....... :wink:
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Post#25 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:38 pm by MacGill

G35 wrote:
MacGill wrote:
Yep, and then we go right back to your point of possible higher individual numbers vs blending talent on championship team and we know which one you value more ;).

Remember the other way for Kobe could have also been like some of the poorer success records (playoffs) that you also like to bring up about some other the other leagues superstars: KG/Nash's etc. So as you state, he accomplished what he did given the team make-up during that period and to me the pro's of that outweigh the smaller potential of increase of some indidvidual metrics.



Well then we are mixing apples and oranges then.

Are we going to include team results when evaluating peaks....... :wink:


Well you certainly like to point to years where there is obvious winning bias 8-)
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Post#26 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 pm by Not Bias

Kobe
T-Mac/Wade
Drexler
Carter
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Post#27 Re: Rank these SG peaks
Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:35 am by Godrick

Last shot to win or tie...I would take VC in the final seconds of the game over ALL ABOVE. And when all players are in "the zone," I rank him equal or ahead of everyone due to his nature of being "unselfish."
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