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Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?

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Is Rondo the Best PG in the NBA?

Yes
3
11%
No
19
68%
Best Passer, But Not The Best Overall PG
6
21%
 
Total votes : 28

Post#46 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:47 pm by Doctor MJ

bigboi wrote:Rondo has been the best player on his team since 08-09, the Celtics lost in 08-09 to the ECF winners in 7 games, lost to the champ in 09-10, lost to the ECF winner in 10-11, and lost to the champion in 11-12. I would say Rondo's resume looks better . Stockton was 1b to Malone's 1a. Kidd played against one of the greatest teams of all time and got demolished, but the series against the Spurs was much closer than suggested. Also no way does Nash take a supporting cast like Kidd's to the Finals. So Nash doesn't have a better resume IMO and the dude has been blessed with some of the greatest supporting casts in NBA history.


Just for comparison, here are the normalized yearly RAPM numbers for Rondo vs Garnett:

'09: Garnett 3.31, Rondo 0.80
'10: Garnett 2.12, Rondo 0.09
'11: Garnett 2.92, Rondo 0.40
'12: Garnett 2.59, Rondo 0.46

I have no idea if that stat means anything to you, suffice to say that Celtics are basically always FAR more dependent on Garnett's presence than Rondo's.

Also of note, in case you're curious about scaling, what I've found is that a score of 1-1.5 is someone who is a borderline all-star, and a score of 2.5-3.0 is someone who could be argued to be an MVP candidate. This isn't just saying Garnett's more impactful than Rondo, it's saying he's way, way, WAY more impactful.

All the other point guards you mention here typically did much better by this measurement than Rondo does.
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Post#47 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:51 pm by Rapcity_11

MisterWestside wrote:That's not what I'm reading from Krodis's post. You can certainly discuss the value of the assists (e.g., the kind of shot the player takes when he gets the ball) but the context of his post was (partly) framed as if Rondo's assists were actually bogus, as if he were the scorekeeper in that game then Rondo wouldn't get some of those assists that he talked about.


This is what he said:

Now, only one of them is really a badly (a few are questionable, but everyone gets questionable assists) credited assist (1:11 is a joke to get an assist on)


Seems you've misinterpreted.
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Post#48 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:27 pm by MisterWestside

Reading Krodis's post again I am inclined to agree. Apologies for the mix-up.

Doctor MJ wrote:To be clear:

-I really don't care that much about the assist stat anyway because I realize how political it is. Scorekeepers are on record for talking about how they've manipulated it in the past to get stars triple doubles, etc. I believe if was Nick Van Exel's career highlight of 20 assists that the scorekeeper just decided give Van Exel credit every time he passed the ball to the guy who scored to see if anyone would notice, and he then chuckled in amusement when the announcers started raving about Van Exel's incredible game.

-What I care about is the opportunity that a distributor is actually creating for his teammates, and if you see in a guys' huge assist game that most of those assists are coming from contested jumpers, that's basically telling you that even when he's on, he's not actually doing anything that astounding in general on that front.


Precisely, and the +/-numbers also show this. Even for the box score, assists aren't what you use for shot-creation. Oliver recognized this as well (which led to his off % used stat, a more "complete" form of usage).

Since '10, Rondo is 2nd in the league in ast%, yet in usage he's 98th out of 165 players who've played significant minutes. He's also behind a bevy of PGs and his teammates Pierce, Garnett, and Allen.

http://bkref.com/tiny/T1COK
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Post#49 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:44 pm by Rapcity_11

How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.
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Post#50 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:54 pm by MacGill

Rapcity_11 wrote:How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.


LOL, you beat me too it. Man he missed some good opportunities today, especially with Demar/JV.

I would say Jose is a step below Rondo from a court vision perspective but I would put them in almost the same tier in how they acquire their assists.

One thing about Rondo that bugs the hell out of me is how many wide open layups he blows. Scary for a PG but no question overall talent between the two is Rondo.
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Post#51 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:07 pm by G35

Rapcity_11 wrote:How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.


Ummmm I suppose I would say that it's the same as Kobe and Jordan right. They both play the same so then the end product is the same...... :roll:
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Post#52 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:12 pm by Rapcity_11

G35 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.


Ummmm I suppose I would say that it's the same as Kobe and Jordan right. They both play the same so then the end product is the same...... :roll:


.......Where did I say that?

I just asked a question which you chose to spin into a typical G35 tangent.
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Post#53 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:15 pm by tsherkin

CablexDeadpool wrote:That's BS because Rondo was in a compressed season and did very well. Everybody was in a compressed season, Rajon Rondo peformed better than Chris Paul, its just that simple.


Right, and it primarily affected people's ability to hit their jumpers, which Rondo isn't very good at doing anyway, so he was naturally less impacted.

Rajon Rondo for 3 years straight has been an above average consistent playoff performer and has put in some surreal games when he team has need it. Rajon Rondo has been damn right magical in the playoffs for three straight years, better than Rose, Westbrook and Paul for three straight years, saving the Miami series in 2010-2011 that was bad, 2010 - 2011 against the Knicks was very good).


He's had a few good games and some compelling averages, but his raw scoring averages are underscored by his uselessness at the line and his consistently poor scoring efficiency. Teams give the shot to Rondo in order to contain more dangerous options and he doesn't regularly make them pay as much as do his peers, including Paul.

Chris Paul gets the benefit of the doubt constantly and Rajon Rondo seems to have to prove himself and then Chris Paul can have a total dud last year and he gets a pass.


Rondo did well in a better situation, that's about what I can say. As I've commented elsewhere, he's quite talented and one of the best PGs in the league. I wouldn't take him over a superior offensive player like Paul, though, and complaining about a down year from Paul when Rondo's team did its best when his role was the smallest isn't exactly a rigorous line of debate to me.

Rajon Rondo drops 44 and 10 along with 8 rebounds against the Miami Heat and people still question his scoring.


You're talking about raw totals, though. You ignored that he did that in 53 minutes, and that he got insensibly and unreliably hot that game (66.7% FG, 10/12 from the line) and that they lost. I'm not sure how that equates to a performance you can use as an indicator of anything consistent in his game. It's not common, it's nothing something he's shown himself capable of doing on command, and he's failed to do so in other situations where it would have helped. He had a hot night and it didn't affect the outcome of the came. Now, he certainly wasn't the REASON they lost that game, but making a big fuss about a single-game performance as if it's predictive of anything seems kind of pointless and empty to me.
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Post#54 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:17 pm by tsherkin

G35 wrote:You could say that about Nash which is really what this is all comes down to. When someone gets rated as a great PG the typical comparison is to say "Well this is what Nash does." Nash's numbers were UNDOUBTEDLY skewed by his role and the offense he played. Just look at the uproar when Nash gets put in an offense where he doesn't control everything.


Nash could fill Rondo's role better than Rondo could fill Nash's, however, so this is a moot point. Meantime, no, Nash's numbers aren't skewed by his role compared to Rondo's. Both of them are the primary ball-handlers for their teams. Rondo's maxed out at 11.2 FGA/g (this season aside), so looking at seasons where Nash has managed a comparable number of FGA/g, we've still seen him score way more effectively while still producing comparable raw assist averages and running higher-efficiency offenses... so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. This is an entirely empty paragraph.
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Post#55 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:17 pm by G35

Aeternus wrote:
G35 wrote:Wrong. Steve Nash had his "Boston scenario" in Dallas. Dirk was KG, Finley was Pierce. Nash was not the Nash you know and love. He was reduced Nash. Any smart coach? I doubt that Rivers would change his successful, WINNING, team to cater to Nash's very specific needs. First off Nash would have to learn to PRACTICE defense. That would be one major change. Some teams practice offense, some practice defense. Which one do you think Doc Rivers preaches? Yeah defense, because it has been successful in Boston.

Magic shared the ball with other great players. Magic gave the ball up to Kareem and got the hell out of the way. Magic didn't run all around the court "probing" the defense. Those Lakers teams were not a pick and roll offense. So very much, not the same. Now Oscar was similar to Nash in that he had those great offenses and crappy defenses and you know what? Their teams had pretty much similar success. I'll let you read into that.

Once again Nash proponents can ONLY measure team success through the offensive side of the ball. Since the Bulls threepeat from 96-98 every championship team has been at least top 10 in defense except for the Lakers 00/01 and they are an outlier because they turned their defense up big time in the playoff's.

Rondo has guided the Celtics offense and been a huge part of their defense and for many that appreciate that the Celtics have largely successful over that period. You are right. Results matter. Show me Nash's rings and I'll show you this.......(cut massive pic)

Same as before, by paragraphs:

On the Cs there were three elite off the ball players, on the Mavs an elite post-ISO and pick&pop guy plus an out of his prime ballhog not even close to Pierce. You can't tell me with a straight face you think that's the same setup. And yet that offense was far better than the '08 Cs.
And the Celtics practiced both offense and defense. Every team does, and one must be (Please Use More Appropriate Word) to think otherwise. Anyone willing to watch the games sees that Nash plays D anyway, he's just not that good at it. Same as Allen really, and Doc has played him plenty. And as a good coach, I would expect him to make all the changes required to get more out of his team.

Magic did that in the same measure Nash does, with the difference that Nash never had other good shot creators on his team other than before-his-prime Joe Johnson, whereas we have an all time great offensive C and another all star level offensive player for Magic.
No Magic didn't run around much in the half court, but he created out of the post and he dribbled using just as much possessions. That's just style of play really.

Once again Nash haters can separate the team's accomplishments from player's. Since the Bulls repeated in the nineties every champion team had both a batter supporting cast and a better main player than Nash's Suns (aside Billups, who just had massive, massive help), so what's the point?

It's pretty damn arguable whether Rondo is the main offensive player on the Cs right now, nevermind when he was a 29mpg sophomore. It's deluded to think he was any more than the 4th best offensive player on the team in 2008, if even that. And not even the most homerish Celtic fan would say Rondo is more important than Garnett for their defense, now as then.



Tell me who is better on offense Dirk or ANY of the Celtic trio. Dirk destroys any of them on offense.

Who is the better offensive coach Doc Rivers or Don Nelson? You may not remember this but Doc was seen as another "dumb ex player coach" until he got gifted Allen and KG. Nash proponents are the biggest ones to point out that Nash needs to be put in the right situation to maximize his talents but then they think that only counts for Nash. Nash in the Celtics system is not nearly the same player.

This is why I am enjoying the excuses coming from Nash fans about how "he isn't being used properly" and the ever reliable, "It's the coach's fault!". Yeah that's what they said with Terry Porter and so Alvin Gentry got hired because he pretty much let Nash do whatever he wanted on offense and skipped any implementation of defense. If Nash fans can't admit that only working on the offensive side of the ball hasn't helped the teams he has been on then they are being intellectually dishonest.......
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Post#56 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:20 pm by G35

Rapcity_11 wrote:
G35 wrote:
Rapcity_11 wrote:How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.


Ummmm I suppose I would say that it's the same as Kobe and Jordan right. They both play the same so then the end product is the same...... :roll:


.......Where did I say that?

I just asked a question which you chose to spin into a typical G35 tangent.


You compared two players with your interpretation of similar playing styles. I don't see that at all, but I didn't get butt hurt. I went with your two player comparison. Kobe and Jordan have been compared forever, so the logical conclusion would be they have similar impact. If you can't handle your own words being used against you perhaps you should choose them more carefully......
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Post#57 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:21 pm by G35

tsherkin wrote:
G35 wrote:You could say that about Nash which is really what this is all comes down to. When someone gets rated as a great PG the typical comparison is to say "Well this is what Nash does." Nash's numbers were UNDOUBTEDLY skewed by his role and the offense he played. Just look at the uproar when Nash gets put in an offense where he doesn't control everything.


Nash could fill Rondo's role better than Rondo could fill Nash's, however, so this is a moot point. Meantime, no, Nash's numbers aren't skewed by his role compared to Rondo's. Both of them are the primary ball-handlers for their teams. Rondo's maxed out at 11.2 FGA/g (this season aside), so looking at seasons where Nash has managed a comparable number of FGA/g, we've still seen him score way more effectively while still producing comparable raw assist averages and running higher-efficiency offenses... so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. This is an entirely empty paragraph.



Preface that with on offense....because Nash couldn't come close on defense......No Nash team has ever come close to being as good on defense as SEVERAL Rondo teams.....
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Post#58 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:30 pm by MacGill

G35 wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
G35 wrote:You could say that about Nash which is really what this is all comes down to. When someone gets rated as a great PG the typical comparison is to say "Well this is what Nash does." Nash's numbers were UNDOUBTEDLY skewed by his role and the offense he played. Just look at the uproar when Nash gets put in an offense where he doesn't control everything.


Nash could fill Rondo's role better than Rondo could fill Nash's, however, so this is a moot point. Meantime, no, Nash's numbers aren't skewed by his role compared to Rondo's. Both of them are the primary ball-handlers for their teams. Rondo's maxed out at 11.2 FGA/g (this season aside), so looking at seasons where Nash has managed a comparable number of FGA/g, we've still seen him score way more effectively while still producing comparable raw assist averages and running higher-efficiency offenses... so I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. This is an entirely empty paragraph.



Prefact that with on offense....because Nash couldn't come close on defense......No Nash team has ever come close to being as good on defense as SEVERAL Rondo teams.....


Well Nash never had a KG on his team ;) now did he.
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Post#59 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:32 pm by G35

MacGill wrote:
Well Nash never had a KG on his team ;) now did he.



Rondo never had Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion and D'Antoni as his coach and carte blanche to say "screw defense" I'm saving it all for the offensive end..... 8-)
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Post#60 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:42 pm by MacGill

G35 wrote:
MacGill wrote:
Well Nash never had a KG on his team ;) now did he.



Rondo never had Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion and D'Antoni as his coach and carte blanche to say "screw defense" I'm saving it all for the offensive end..... 8-)


Ah gotcha. Rondo would have put those Suns teams over the hump because of his defensive impact :-?
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Post#61 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:38 pm by MisterWestside

MacGill wrote:LOL, you beat me too it. Man he missed some good opportunities today, especially with Demar/JV.

I would say Jose is a step below Rondo from a court vision perspective but I would put them in almost the same tier in how they acquire their assists.


Well at least Jose can actually shoot the ball as well. Unlike Rondo, if you leave him open he can knock down the shot from midrange and 3.

And that's what keeps Rondo from truly joining the game's elite PGs (like Paul, Nash, etc.); a lack of offense outside the assist. You can spam assists all you want, but as I mentioned before it's not a proxy for shot-creation. Sporting a lower ortg than every other PG since '08 except Westbrook, Davis, Felton, Sessions, and Watson (and all but Watson are doing more for their team's offense) doesn't say "elite".
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Post#62 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:49 pm by MacGill

Well at least Jose can actually shoot the ball as well. Unlike Rondo, if you leave him open he can knock down the shot from midrange and 3.


100% agree with that.

And that's what keeps Rondo from truly joining the game's elite PGs (like Paul, Nash, etc.); a lack of offense outside the assist. You can spam assists all you want, but as I mentioned before it's not a proxy for shot-creation. Sporting a lower ortg than every other PG since '08 except Westbrook, Davis, Felton, Sessions, and Watson (and all but Watson are doing more for their team's offense) doesn't say "elite".


To note though, Jose is terrible at shot creation himself and scores most from being a spot up shooter off the pass. Rondo excels in comparison to taking the ball to the rim as well as while driving being able to make a creative pass resulting in a team score.

I do not have Rondo in the elite category but would certainly prefe him on my team compared to Jose. Unlike Rondo, Jose loves to push the ball up the court then slow down to a half court set so that defences have a chance to set?? We do have some run and gun athletes on our team who will see greater success once Lowry comes back from injury.
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Post#63 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:57 pm by tsherkin

G35 wrote:Preface that with on offense....because Nash couldn't come close on defense......No Nash team has ever come close to being as good on defense as SEVERAL Rondo teams.....


Offense is considerably more important than defense to a PG, because of the differing levels of impact possible. Rondo is a better defender, sure, but the offensive gap is large enough that this isn't that significant. Rondo isn't even close to a defensive anchor type player, and he's been able to play some pretty aggressive perimeter defense because of the team he's had. Superior defensive coaching, superior defensive personnel, it makes a difference. This isn't a relevant comment. Nash has shown himself capable of doing the exact things Rondo cannot consistently manage, even come the playoffs, in terms of asserting himself as a scoring threat in an effective and efficient manner... and he does more for his team's offense during the regular season. This is far more important than the difference between their respective abilities to play perimeter defense.

Rapcity_11 wrote:How do Rondo guys feel about Jose Calderon and his offensive impact? How does he compare to Rondo offensively? He's another guy with a very high assist rate due to his playing style.


This... goes a little too far. Rondo is more dynamic than Calderon. Jose had to learn how to not be a bitch and to actually push the ball in transition, something Rondo has always done very well, and of course Rondo is more explosive, so he can take advantage of smaller seams in the defense... whereas Calderon will just back off. Rondo doesn't pull the shot often enough, but Jose has a superhuman ability to not shoot when it is appropriate to shoot.

Yes, they both inflate their assist numbers with set offense and spam plays, and they both shoot very little, but that doesn't really make him an effective comparison here because we know Rondo can and does do more on a game-to-game basis. Rondo is still one of the best point guards in the league, whereas Jose is not worth playing a lot more than 25 mpg.
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Post#64 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:20 pm by MisterWestside

MacGill wrote:To note though, Jose is terrible at shot creation himself and scores most from being a spot up shooter off the pass. Rondo excels in comparison to taking the ball to the rim as well as while driving being able to make a creative pass resulting in a team score.

I do not have Rondo in the elite category but would certainly prefe him on my team compared to Jose. Unlike Rondo, Jose loves to push the ball up the court then slow down to a half court set so that defences have a chance to set?? We do have some run and gun athletes on our team who will see greater success once Lowry comes back from injury.


Oh definitely agreed there; Jose isn't a shot-creator himself. But at least he can give opponents something to think about with his ability to shoot the ball at a solid clip; when Jose gets to the rim he finishes (close to 60% efg in 2011) and he can stretch the floor with the midrange shot and 3-ball (46% efg on jumpers in '11). Doesn't get to the line much at sub-20% free-throw rate, but he'll make them better when he gets there (despite taking ~30 less fts than Rondo in '11, Jose still converted 13 more free throws!) Rondo is clearly superior at getting to the rim, but his horrid jumper and ft shooting form suppresses some of that value: in 2011 he took nearly 60% jumpers and shot a beautiful 39% efg on them while going 57% from the line. Yeah, it's nice to get to the line and gets defenders in foul trouble, but you still gotta your fts. If not, can you at least hit an open shot when defenses give them to you? It's why good defensive teams can just sag off of Rondo (especially in the playoffs) with success.

I think if you were to swap him and Rondo for the Cs (leaving defense out of the picture here), you wouldn't miss much. Pierce can still get his own shot, KG can do the same in the post, and Jose is still a good enough passerto get others involved while being a superior shooter.
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Post#65 Re: Is Rondo Finally the best PG in the NBA?
Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:24 pm by tsherkin

Nah, Jose would be bad for Boston. He's ACTUALLY as bad on defense as G35 tries to say Nash is. And of course he is a far less effective transition threat.

Jose is too limited to be worth more than 25ish mpg, and he'd make Boston appreciably worse.
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