Player that this board has changed your mind about the most?

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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#61 » by ardee » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:30 pm

Swimmer wrote:For me, I'd say I am more upbeat about Bird, Shaq, and Robinson for very different reasons. I am down on Malone, Barkley, and Pippen.


Barkley? Interesting. RealGM has explained the value of high volume high efficiency scorers who can play in the flow of the offense to me rather well, and he's become one of my favorites.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#62 » by Swimmer » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:45 pm

ardee wrote:
Swimmer wrote:For me, I'd say I am more upbeat about Bird, Shaq, and Robinson for very different reasons. I am down on Malone, Barkley, and Pippen.


Barkley? Interesting. RealGM has explained the value of high volume high efficiency scorers who can play in the flow of the offense to me rather well, and he's become one of my favorites.


Honestly, it's surprising to me, too. Barkley was one of my favorite players. However, I often mentioned KG, Duncan, Malone, and Barkley in the same breath, and would have had them consecutively in an ATL -- I feel like there is some separation there between the first two and the latter two, and that stems primarily from the defensive impact. That being said, your discussion with some of the others in the peaks project highlight Barkley's defensive woes as well as his ridiculous offensive peak, so it's a bit give and take.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#63 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:42 pm

Bank Shot wrote:Positive: Garnett which I'm not too happy about. Its much easier to cheer against a guy when he's both overrated and a dbag :lol:

Negative: Bird a little bit. Some of those playoff dips and failures are pretty glaring. Moses as well. I used to have him 11 but now I've dropped him quite a bit.

I personally don't buy the anti-Wilt arguments as much as some people do here. I've penbeast made some good arguments for Wilt and I think he's underrated in the top 100 and peak threads. I thought there were some good arguments against Wilt in the top 100 (don't necessarily agree with them but there were some good points) but the peak arguments were weaker. I was pretty surprised at Russell over Wilt peak wise and I have Russell as my number 2 guy of all time. I am happy with the pro-Russell movement that has started on here the last couple years.


It's funny, when I came on here I caught a lot of flak about my ranking Russell over Wilt; (well, that and being a Iverson and Nique hater) . . . now, other than Dipper who is a special case, I seem to be one of the main Wilt defenders and even end up defending Nique . . . and yet my opinion of them hasn't shifted much. The Board consensus has. That's what makes this a fun thread for me, because the board is a very different place than it was when I started posting here -- it seems stronger and more knowledgeable by far although we've lost some great posters like TheSecretWeapon and TrueLAFan who were among those I learned from.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#64 » by Kabookalu » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:16 pm

Every player that played in the 60's, most in particular Wilt Chamberlain. Like most ballboys I assumed Wilt played in an era with skinny and short white men and had no skills. Then posters like writerman and TrueLAFan really opened up my eyes to how dominant he really was.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#65 » by GreenHat » Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:25 am

Choker wrote:Every player that played in the 60's, most in particular Wilt Chamberlain. Like most ballboys I assumed Wilt played in an era with skinny and short white men and had no skills. Then posters like writerman and TrueLAFan really opened up my eyes to how dominant he really was.


I had an almost completely opposite experience.

I thought too highly of the players of the 60s based on their absurd stats without realizing the proper context of the pace and the defense (or more precisely the lack of defense)

Then I saw the videos and saw that actual gameplay was far from what I had imagined or what others had described. And these were the videos being posted in defense of the 60s.

The posts by writerman made me realize how much of the talk of that era was deliberate exaggerations and tall tales.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#66 » by CKRT » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:02 am

Wilt, Kobe, and Stockton have probably shifted the most. I haven't really gotten back past the early 90s though, just read a lot of arguments for/against Wilt. I certainly rank Russell so much higher than I ever would have imagined. Kobe dropped for me because I realized how terrible his shot selection is, and how mediocre his efficiency is. Stockton dropped like a rock for me after reading the huge Nash/Stockton thread, as well as reading into the Jazz's assist inflation stuff by ElGee along with one or two other articles from ElGee as well. Subsequently, I'm watching a ton of Celtics stuff right now and it's becoming painfully obvious how poor raw assist averages are, and quite honestly how little Rondo does for their offense. Further reading into some of ElGee's OC (opportunities created) stuff is kind of confirming what I was seeing, but was not able to statistically prove.

Nash, KG, Russell, Walton, and LeBron have all skyrocketed for me for a number of reasons. Nash's ridiculous offensive impact, KG/Bill's defensive impact, Walton's INSANE peak, and LeBron's combination of all those things.

I know I'm forgetting a few players here. I know I'm not very high on Magic, as say I am on Nash, but I know there are a lot of people whose opinions I respect, and acknowledge as being much more knowledgable about the game than I, who have Magic as their offensive GOAT.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#67 » by Doormatt » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:29 pm

i dunno about walton. i always knew he was good at his peak, i think most people do, but honestly from what ive gathered hes a bit overrated because he really only plays at that level for a season, and then A LOT of nothing or way less than what he was at his peak. its really more the surrounding seasons that make me question how valuable walton was as a player, especially when someone brought up how if he was playing in the modern era, he would just be sitting on your bench, eating up (possibly huge) cap space, and in general rotting away because he can never play. if your superstar player spends more time on the bench than the court. how valuable is that player really?
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#68 » by penbeast0 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:33 pm

CKRT wrote:Wilt, Kobe, and Stockton have probably shifted the most. I haven't really gotten back past the early 90s though, just read a lot of arguments for/against Wilt. I certainly rank Russell so much higher than I ever would have imagined. Kobe dropped for me because I realized how terrible his shot selection is, and how mediocre his efficiency is. Stockton dropped like a rock for me after reading the huge Nash/Stockton thread, as well as reading into the Jazz's assist inflation stuff by ElGee along with one or two other articles from ElGee as well. Subsequently, I'm watching a ton of Celtics stuff right now and it's becoming painfully obvious how poor raw assist averages are, and quite honestly how little Rondo does for their offense. Further reading into some of ElGee's OC (opportunities created) stuff is kind of confirming what I was seeing, but was not able to statistically prove.

Nash, KG, Russell, Walton, and LeBron have all skyrocketed for me for a number of reasons. Nash's ridiculous offensive impact, KG/Bill's defensive impact, Walton's INSANE peak, and LeBron's combination of all those things.

I know I'm forgetting a few players here. I know I'm not very high on Magic, as say I am on Nash, but I know there are a lot of people whose opinions I respect, and acknowledge as being much more knowledgable about the game than I, who have Magic as their offensive GOAT.


If you think Stockton's assist numbers are inflated relative to league average at home, check out the equivalent numbers for Magic Johnson at home in LA. That and remember that even if those stats are inflated, Stockton could lose 20% of his assists and STILL be number one; his domination of that stat is pretty ridiculous, it's almost Wiltlike which is why people may work so hard to discount them. It's hard to accept that big a statistical outlier.

That said, I agree that assist numbers aren't a particularly useful stat when you try to relate them to winning and Stockton's defense has become a bit overrated though it was still solid (and dirty).
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#69 » by Dr Pepper » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:15 pm

Both are no strangers to the Suns

Positive: Charles Barkley. His stats and highlights was unreal for not only his size but reflected statistically and through RealGM analysis

Negative: Steve Nash. Mostly because of the overwhelming support for Nash over Stockton and arguments claiming that Nash is the best offensive player of all time. The following quoted post captures imo the Nash vs Stockton RealGM comparison:

kaima wrote:It's interesting, and rather wrong-headed, how people create a schism between off/def -- not in the metrics, mind, but in how we interpret what those numbers are telling us.

Stockton and Nash are two major case studies, not equal but somewhere closer to opposite; Stockton was a pace-control guard that controlled games on both ends through his ability to play at whatever pace was called for.

On the other hand, with Nash we have a player that needs a specific kind of tempo/pace/offensive utility to thrive; he is controlled by pace as much as he controls it. Move him outside that comfort zone and he will founder.

Stockton's defensive ability is highly underrated, yes. But on this board, perhaps moreso, his greatness at controlling a game through offense/pace control is at issue. They conflate, largely, in that Stcokton's game management -- ability to control through pace -- creates defensive outcomes as well as offensive, upping the ante on per possession models at his/Utah's peak.

Nash? Relies on defense to basically be a non-issue; at his best the model is to create a pace that both degrades defensive value and thus per possession worth. This is how the ORTG values go up, by saving energy on the defensive ends, typically for both squads.

As a measure, this can be seen by how quickly a Suns team would run up the score, then lose that selfsame lead and even fall behind. Game management was largely a joke.

Whereas the best Stockton Jazz teams could grind through many games with a ten point lead that felt like twenty+, never relinquishing control, a Steve Nash team often creates 20+ points leads that feel like 10.

Pace control is defensive?offensive conflation, at its best. Its a measure of control.

That this shows up for the ultimate lead guard game manager we've possibly ever seen, even nearing 40, is not shocking.

I'm not a big proponent of RAPM in its various permutations, but the idea, pushed on this site, that the biggest problem with it is when John Stockton of all players ranks highly shows just what an echo chamber of blinkered demagoguery (versus the hypocritical, cheerleader theatrics for Nash) RealGM so often is.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#70 » by MacGill » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:30 pm

ardee wrote:
The Infamous1 wrote:Almost everyone is saying wilt :lol:


You doubted that? Nearly everyone on his board, even if they're really good and knowledgeable posters like Doctor MJ, ElGee, MacGill or fatal9, is out to demean Wilt's accomplishments. You just need to open a random thread and read a few posts to realize Wilt is like Satan in the PC board.


I have no problem with Wilt at all. I have him #10 right now and will see LBJ move him out. Certainly I do not see him as high as some and I just so happen to agree with a certain opinion about his career after facts are presented and my own research is completed.

But let's be honest here, it is usually the clear Wilt above Shaq/Hakeem etc that fuels it. You & I have had some good debates without the homerism glasses taking over and I for one can admit that there are both Wilt/Shaq fans who negetively contribute to this which ruins it for the rest of us unfortunately.

But let's do make one thing clear

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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#71 » by wigglestrue » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:15 pm

Dipper 13 wrote:
The highlight reel footage doesn't match the eye test nor the article recaps.


Could you provide an example please? I assume you have viewed one of the few available games and read the appropriate recap to find such discrepancy. What exactly are you looking for with your eye test?



I have yet to see any debunk of these claims


I have recently shown how inaccurate the estimates likely are. In those days, every single missed FT was recorded, so if a player was to hit the first one and miss the last two (one of which was a penalty) shot, boxscore would have him at a 33% accuracy during this sequence, instead of 50% as it would be in this era. You have to realize the highest number of possible points a player could score on any given trip to the line was 2, despite potentially receiving 3 attempts in the penalty. Missing one FT in the penalty does not penalize the team at all, but rather the individual. And since all the possession estimates used for ORtg & DRtg here are 100% dependent on statistics that are already recorded in the box score, this heavily distorts not only the individual's FT% but also the team possession efficiency estimates.


Sir, you are my new favorite poster. Did you happen to see the topic I started this summer on the Stats board?

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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#72 » by Dipper 13 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:22 am

^Yes indeed, there is a lot to be desired with the way the rules back then have potentially affected these efficiency estimates. Of course it will seem I am reaching at straws here. We can't even get a basic idea of how the teams played and what their tendencies & habits were. Here I am stuck with anecdotes and newspaper recaps. The lack of proper game footage is crippling to say the least.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#73 » by aal04 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:46 am

Kobe.

I thought he was good basketball player, but after reading some opinions on realgm i think if he grew a beard and lost some tan he could be Jesus Christ.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#74 » by Narigo » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:40 am

Positive
Bill Russell- Thought he was overrated because he didn't scorer like Shaq/Wilt etc. I didn't know his defense was really that good. Didn't know he was a good passer too.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar- never thought of him that much. I thought Magic made him who he was.



Negative
Michael Jordan- I thought he was the undisputed GOAT.No one can surpass him. Probably I had this mindset because I am a Bulls fan. Now he is just the GOAT with Russell and Kareem close behind.

Kobe Bryant- Thought he was third all time behind Jordan and Wilt. This is probably because I just started watching basketball around Jordan second three peat. And watching Kobe reminded me of Jordan. He was the Jordan of my time. Then I realized that Shaq, Duncan and possibly KG might be better he is

Wilt Chamberlain- I used to be impressed with his scoring stats until learning about his playoff failures. Though I still appreciate his versatility. He could be put into different roles and excel very effectively. He could be a volume scorer, to high post passing big man to defensive anchor. His versatility is the main reason he is still in the top 10 for me.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#75 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:56 am

MacGill wrote:you have me.


:beer:

I like when I meet someone who has the good sense to know what they don't know, but I think you sell yourself short.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#76 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:00 am

Dr Pepper wrote:Negative: Steve Nash. Mostly because of the overwhelming support for Nash over Stockton and arguments claiming that Nash is the best offensive player of all time. The following quoted post captures imo the Nash vs Stockton


Interesting. So you're saying flat out, the opinions here have polarized you against Nash to the point where they've lowered the opinion you came to on your own?

The only weird thing to me about that is that you are actually able to recognize this is happening (which is hard to do) and that you don't seem to see a problem with it. Well and good though if arguments such as some of those presented by kaima sway you more than those on the pro-Nash side, and maybe that's all you mean.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#77 » by swag2011 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:24 pm

Kobe Bryant: This board made me realize he SUCKS. His PER isn't as good as any other all time greats. He's just an inefficient chucker who has a great resume because of the teams he's played on, not him. He's not nearly as good as his resume indicates. His 81 point game, 62 in 3 quarters, multiple 50 and 40 point game streaks are ALL overrated, anyone could do those given the same opportunity. He was carried by prime shaq, odom, gasol, fisher, horry, and now even nash and howard. Not to mention having the GOAT coach in Phil Jackson. He didn't deserve none of the all nba or all d teams either. He only won them b/c he's in LA which is the most popular team in the world. He's barely a top 20 player all time honestly.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#78 » by penbeast0 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:09 pm

Odd, because the board considered him a top 10 player last time we had the "sense of the board" GOAT list and he has just added to his resume since then.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#79 » by OptimusOne6 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Positive: Kevin Garnett, originally I had him outside of the top 20 players of all-time, but now I have him somewhere in the top 15-17 range. I use to agree with the cliches that KG was afraid of the clutch, needs a closer, etc. but I found out most of those are myths.

Negative: Charles Barkley, I thought the numbers spoke high volume about great of a player he was but the numbers didn't make as much of an impact as it showed. He was also an off-court/locker-room problem and a defensive liability.
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Re: Player that this board has changed your mind about the m 

Post#80 » by rrravenred » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:23 pm

I'm sensing some minor sarcasm there, Pen.

Edit: And possibly failed to detect some in your post. :P
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