Both are no strangers to the Suns
Positive: Charles Barkley. His stats and highlights was unreal for not only his size but reflected statistically and through RealGM analysis
Negative: Steve Nash. Mostly because of the overwhelming support for Nash over Stockton and arguments claiming that Nash is the best offensive player of all time. The following quoted post captures imo the Nash vs Stockton RealGM comparison:
kaima wrote:It's interesting, and rather wrong-headed, how people create a schism between off/def -- not in the metrics, mind, but in how we interpret what those numbers are telling us.
Stockton and Nash are two major case studies, not equal but somewhere closer to opposite; Stockton was a pace-control guard that controlled games on both ends through his ability to play at whatever pace was called for.
On the other hand, with Nash we have a player that needs a specific kind of tempo/pace/offensive utility to thrive; he is controlled by pace as much as he controls it. Move him outside that comfort zone and he will founder.
Stockton's defensive ability is highly underrated, yes. But on this board, perhaps moreso, his greatness at controlling a game through offense/pace control is at issue. They conflate, largely, in that Stcokton's game management -- ability to control through pace -- creates defensive outcomes as well as offensive, upping the ante on per possession models at his/Utah's peak.
Nash? Relies on defense to basically be a non-issue; at his best the model is to create a pace that both degrades defensive value and thus per possession worth. This is how the ORTG values go up, by saving energy on the defensive ends, typically for both squads.
As a measure, this can be seen by how quickly a Suns team would run up the score, then lose that selfsame lead and even fall behind. Game management was largely a joke.
Whereas the best Stockton Jazz teams could grind through many games with a ten point lead that felt like twenty+, never relinquishing control, a Steve Nash team often creates 20+ points leads that feel like 10.
Pace control is defensive?offensive conflation, at its best. Its a measure of control.
That this shows up for the ultimate lead guard game manager we've possibly ever seen, even nearing 40, is not shocking.
I'm not a big proponent of RAPM in its various permutations, but the idea, pushed on this site, that the biggest problem with it is when John Stockton of all players ranks highly shows just what an echo chamber of blinkered demagoguery (versus the hypocritical, cheerleader theatrics for Nash) RealGM so often is.