Player that this board has changed your mind about the most?

[Godrick]

A lot of people gave up on him. If the Knicks continue winning, as they should...I foresee him being an MVP candidate.

[rrravenred]

A lot of people gave up on him. If the Knicks continue winning, as they should...I foresee him being an MVP candidate.

Right well that makes sense... wait, what?

So are you saying that your opinion on Melo has been drastically changed in the, um, FOUR DAYS you've been visiting?

[Godrick]

Well, yea i guess, geee, ummm wait...I've only been visiting these forums for FOUR DAYS bc it states "Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:02 pm???" HOW'D U KNOW?!

[rrravenred]

Well you COULD be a previously banned poster, of course, and people generally hold on to their online identities unless there's a particular reason they've been revoked. You could of course be a sockpuppet for another existent identity (bannable offence, BTW).

You could possibly be a longtime lurker who's only recently decided to get an account and start posting, but if so I would have expected something better that the unrelated non-sequitur you just posted on a board that is generally noted for on-topic posting and constructive community.

If this seems unnecessarily hostile, it's because this thread actually offers scope for intelligent discussion of people changing long-held views based on the argument and evidence of other posters, and your strange love-letter to Melo (touching as it is) is a distraction from that. If you want to start a NEW thread on "Melo for MVP" then feel free. If not, please stay on topic.

And yep, I goofed up with the number of days. Shoot me.

[-Kees-]

Kobe Bryant (honestly had him out of my top 10 before I came here), Bill Russell and Shaq are the big one for me.

[Godrick]

I would if I could. Shoot you, of course. You goofed up enough with your unneccessary assumptions. Your hostility didn't go unnoticed either. Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm also not a Melo "lover" as yet, as I havent been a Knick fan since Ewing and H20 days However, I have watched enough games to notice an unmeasureable change in his game. He is differing to his teammates, playing grittier, and looks like he's on a now or never mission. If the Knicks keep winning and finish with a strong record, I wonder if he'll be mentioned as an MVP candidate.

So if the thought process of having your team's leading scorer, picking up his defense, playing team basketball, and leading his team to winning games....wouldn't be MVP mentioning worthy, after everyone writing him last playoffs, and years before...isn't intelligent enough for you, I'll simply ignore you and ask you to do the same to me as well.

[rrravenred]

In all three posts you've ignored the OP and any previous posters (including Doctor MJ's polite enquiry as to how your posts relate to the thread) and run off with your own agenda. Expect to be called on that by me or others, if you do it again. And I can't actually ignore you, as I am a moderator on this board. Picking up on those posts is actually my job. If I contact you in an official capacity (which I'm not, at this point), then ignoring me may not actually be a wise course of action if you want to keep posting on this board.

[therealbig3]

I would if I could. Shoot you, of course. You goofed up enough with your unneccessary assumptions. Your hostility didn't go unnoticed either. Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm also not a Melo "lover" as yet, as I havent been a Knick fan since Ewing and H20 days However, I have watched enough games to notice an unmeasureable change in his game. He is differing to his teammates, playing grittier, and looks like he's on a now or never mission. If the Knicks keep winning and finish with a strong record, I wonder if he'll be mentioned as an MVP candidate.

So if the thought process of having your team's leading scorer, picking up his defense, playing team basketball, and leading his team to winning games....wouldn't be MVP mentioning worthy, after everyone writing him last playoffs, and years before...isn't intelligent enough for you, I'll simply ignore you and ask you to do the same to me as well.

You don't seem to understand the question that's being asked...

[Godrick]

I would if I could. Shoot you, of course. You goofed up enough with your unneccessary assumptions. Your hostility didn't go unnoticed either. Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm also not a Melo "lover" as yet, as I havent been a Knick fan since Ewing and H20 days However, I have watched enough games to notice an unmeasureable change in his game. He is differing to his teammates, playing grittier, and looks like he's on a now or never mission. If the Knicks keep winning and finish with a strong record, I wonder if he'll be mentioned as an MVP candidate.

So if the thought process of having your team's leading scorer, picking up his defense, playing team basketball, and leading his team to winning games....wouldn't be MVP mentioning worthy, after everyone writing him last playoffs, and years before...isn't intelligent enough for you, I'll simply ignore you and ask you to do the same to me as well.

You don't seem to understand the question that's being asked...

I guess your right..it sure seems like it. But i'll leave now. Sorry, it wouldve be cool if i received an explanation. I didnt know I had to follow the exact guidelines of the op. I never doubted Dr MJ being polite. An explanation would of be easier instead of an insult. It wasn't my intent to attract **** remarks.

But here..after this, i'm done.

These board change my views on Melo cause ive read he was a selfish ass player, played no D, and would never be a winner. For a long time, i shared the same view. But reading more about how he's doing now, led me to check it out. After watching some games, NYK look legit, along wit him. I swore i gave up on him in DEN. Same goes for JR, too. Best of luck to NY

[Dipper 13]

The highlight reel footage doesn't match the eye test nor the article recaps.

Could you provide an example please? I assume you have viewed one of the few available games and read the appropriate recap to find such discrepancy. What exactly are you looking for with your eye test?

I have yet to see any debunk of these claims

I have recently shown how inaccurate the estimates likely are. In those days, every single missed FT was recorded, so if a player was to hit the first one and miss the last two (one of which was a penalty) shot, boxscore would have him at a 33% accuracy during this sequence, instead of 50% as it would be in this era. You have to realize the highest number of possible points a player could score on any given trip to the line was 2, despite potentially receiving 3 attempts in the penalty. Missing one FT in the penalty does not penalize the team at all, but rather the individual. And since all the possession estimates used for ORtg & DRtg here are 100% dependent on statistics that are already recorded in the box score, this heavily distorts not only the individual's FT% but also the team possession efficiency estimates.

[The Infamous1]

Almost everyone is saying wilt

[AdamTheGreek]

It's tough to find anyone else that's been 'hurt' more with the correctly done negative topics on Wilt to replace him.

I too will say Bill Russell has been 'reinforced' positively the most as a phenomenal player with the evidence provided by others.

[Doctor MJ]

I guess your right..it sure seems like it. But i'll leave now. Sorry, it wouldve be cool if i received an explanation. I didnt know I had to follow the exact guidelines of the op. I never doubted Dr MJ being polite. An explanation would of be easier instead of an insult. It wasn't my intent to attract **** remarks.

But here..after this, i'm done.

These board change my views on Melo cause ive read he was a selfish ass player, played no D, and would never be a winner. For a long time, i shared the same view. But reading more about how he's doing now, led me to check it out. After watching some games, NYK look legit, along wit him. I swore i gave up on him in DEN. Same goes for JR, too. Best of luck to NY

Well, Godrick, let me apologize for you feeling like people are jumping down your throat. This is certainly not how we want to make new people feel at a time when they are most uncertain of themselves. Just understand a few things:

1) You came in misunderstanding the topic, which can cause trouble.

2) You came in championing a polarizing player, which can cause trouble.

3) You've got a brand new account, and on this board we see a lot of people try to come back after causing enough trouble to get banned. The veteran posters (not even the mods) know this, see signs, and respond knowingly.

So unfortunately, you just really stepped in it. Completely fine for you to decide you'd rather not be here if people are acting so negatively toward you, but you're not getting anything like a typical response, which I imagine you know if you've been lurking a while.

Just to speak on Melo:

It's too early for me to take lessons away from this year, but it's certainly possible this is his turnaround year. We've always known he has skills, and he's truly been great for our international teams, so there's really been no doubt that he could be better. It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

Oddly enough, the only player I can think of with some similarities is...Wilt.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

[MisterWestside]

Just to speak on Melo:

It's too early for me to take lessons away from this year, but it's certainly possible this is his turnaround year. We've always known he has skills, and he's truly been great for our international teams, so there's really been no doubt that he could be better. It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

Oddly enough, the only player I can think of with some similarities is...Wilt.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

Umm...what exactly has Melo done that warrants praise now? He's still the same, inefficient chucker he's always been; the Knicks hot start should be accredited to the smart PG play by Kidd, JR Smith's ACTUAL turnaround and the savvy veteran Chandler. Melo's defense? Okay fine; 9 seasons into his career he's finally figured out that defense is half of the game in basketball. Over 8 games though, and I'm not going to buy his commitment to lock-down defense over a small sample size.

You can continue making comparisons to Wilt, and I'll continue to cite strong evidence that Wilt could actually dominate the game of basketball, even if it wasn't exactly sound team strategy due to the era he played in. This Melo character doesn't even do that. He's probably above-average on offense with no consistency on defense.

Shall I continue?

[Rapcity_11]

Yup, I'm already bracing myself for potential Melo for MVP talk and other crap about how he's a different player because his team happens to be playing better.

[Dipper 13]

It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

After his 9th season Wilt was with the Lakers.

[Aeternus]

The biggest positive changes for me were Russell and Dirk, I didn't really consider the first even just on par with Wilt impact wise, same goes for the second and the 90s PFs, but I've seen a lot of very good arguments that made me change my mind here.

The biggest negative changes were MJ, Kobe and Stockton. I came here believing the first to be totally on another level from the rest of the top ten, the second a Shaq/Duncan level impact player, and the third as good a playmaker as Magic. Needless to say, I changed my mind.

[Ginobili]

They have changed my mind positively with Garnett. Im still annoyed with the exaggerations made about him and this sort of cult of followers he has, but ive come to realize he is an even great player than what I knew. But again, sometimes the pro-Garnett agenda gets a lil bit annoying. My appreciation of the player has gone up, but my appreciation of some of his followers certainly no.

Negatively, this board has changed my mind with Karl Malone. Some knowledgeable posters have shown how his playoff production takes a dip and of course he was an awesome player, but other than his other-wordly longevity, I dont think he was a better player than other all-time PFs, I currently have him 5th actually in that department.

The board hasnt changed my mind with Allen Iverson though, despite the strong hate he receives around this site.

[Doctor MJ]

It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

After his 9th season Wilt was with the Lakers.

I quite clearly said that there was no player in history who made the transformation after their 9th year. Wilt was to be included in that statement.

[Doctor MJ]

Just to speak on Melo:

It's too early for me to take lessons away from this year, but it's certainly possible this is his turnaround year. We've always known he has skills, and he's truly been great for our international teams, so there's really been no doubt that he could be better. It's just I can't think of any player in history who undid most of his own good for his first 9 years of NBA ball who then made a switch and became a true impact superstar.

Oddly enough, the only player I can think of with some similarities is...Wilt.

All roads lead back to Wilt.

Umm...what exactly has Melo done that warrants praise now? He's still the same, inefficient chucker he's always been; the Knicks hot start should be accredited to the smart PG play by Kidd, JR Smith's ACTUAL turnaround and the savvy veteran Chandler. Melo's defense? Okay fine; 9 seasons into his career he's finally figured out that defense is half of the game in basketball. Over 8 games though, and I'm not going to buy his commitment to lock-down defense over a small sample size.

You can continue making comparisons to Wilt, and I'll continue to cite strong evidence that Wilt could actually dominate the game of basketball, even if it wasn't exactly sound team strategy due to the era he played in. This Melo character doesn't even do that. He's probably above-average on offense with no consistency on defense.

Shall I continue?

I did say it was too early to take lessons from this year, did I not?

That said, forget about credit allocation for a second:

If these trends hold up, will you think it's a coincidence that other players started playing more effectively with Melo when he transitioned over to power forward? I think there's a lot to be said for Melo not necessarily playing his given role better than he played his previous role, but playing a role which takes less food off the table for his teammates than the previous role.