How good was 2003 Kevin Garnett?
Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:05 pm
The guy led the Twolves in Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks in average and in totals.
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After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:
The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.
In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.
And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.
So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).
ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.
Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.
After going through the Kings '04 series more in depth, I decided to look at all of peak KG's wins over the elite competition ('03 Lakers, '04 Kings, '04 Lakers). The Wolves won 8 out of 19 games over those 2 series. Here are the results from those 8 wins:
The opponent averaged 90.5 points on 39.5% FG in those 8 games for an ORtg of 96.9. The Kings (4 games, season ORtg 110.2), '03 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 105.5) and '04 Lakers (2 games, season ORtg 107.2) had a weighted average ORtg of 108.3. That's a composite -11.4 on defense for the Wolves in the 8 wins. (And both of those Lakers teams performed at higher levels than their season averages when their core guys were healthy, which they were against the Wolves. ElGee can give you the specifics on how much better). By the way, those Wolves had no other elite defenders except KG, and they were playing in a Flip Saunders system with zero defensive focus.
In those 8 wins, Garnett averaged 29.4 points on 56.9% TS, 15.4 boards, 3.8 assists, 2.1 steals, 3.3 blocks, and an average game score of 26.0. And remember, this is all at very low paces historically. The Wolves' pace was around 90, while the '77 Blazers were at 108 and the 60s were faster still. If we pace adjusted to those times, we'd be looking at scoring on the order of Wilt's or Kareem's career playoff highs.
And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.
So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).
ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.
Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.
And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.
So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).
G35 wrote:ardee wrote:Almost as good as 2004 Kevin Garnett. His Playoffs was ridiculous, I was rewatching that 35/20/7 game he dropped on LA, he was practically EVERYWHERE.
Here's a post from drza about KG in '03 and '04 that's stuck with me.
And it should be noted that of the 8 wins, 5 of them were by 5 points or less and 2 were in overtime. So they were BARELY winning...KG had to perform at this level for them to even squeak out wins over elite opponents.
So in summary, for those Wolves to win, KG had to score like Wilt, play defense like Russell, and run his team's offense from the high-post like Walton (if not running the PG outright).
All three which were not within KG's ability.
Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~
Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~
And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.
Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....
kaima wrote:The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.
frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.
G35 wrote:
All three which were not within KG's ability.
Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~
Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~
And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.
Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....
MacGill wrote:
Man you are all over the place aren't you? Now a defensive first player doesn't make the cut for you? It must be easy to simply judge impact over 50 years of ball to tear down KG I mean, imagine he won the title and had to be included as part of your winning bias evaluation. Wally for MVP, I guess
Swimmer wrote:kaima wrote:The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.
frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.
I'm pretty sure this was addressed above. The team defensively without Garnett was poor. The team defensively with Garnett on defense was mediocre. How does that not line up with RAPM?G35 wrote:
All three which were not within KG's ability.
Of the three KG had the best chance to duplicate Russell's defense but he wasn't nearly the shot blocker that Bill was, nor was his teams DRtg's anywhere near what the Celtics produced. ~cue the lack of talent excuse, but those Celtics were not a bunch of defensive specialists either~
Passing KG never got a team altogether like Walton did in his peak year with the Blazers. ~Walton is a bad comparison because this is exactly the type of performance I'm talking about when I say that KG NEVER beat an opponent he wasn't suppose to beat. That is typically the excuse you get, but those Blazers had to beat higher seeded teams in Denver, Lakers, and Sixers.~
And we all know that when talk about scoring like Wilt we mean when he was scoring 40+ppg. KG never remotely showed that sort of ability.
Great season by KG but we don't have to drift off into fantasy land to tout KG's peak seasons.....
Again, for the most part addressed by drza. I don't think he's claiming KG reached the peaks of Russell + Walton + Wilt, just that he had to flash all of those skillsets just to keep his team in the game.
-- Defense. C'mon now, are you comparing the Wolves defensive abilities to the Celtics.....
-- Passing. What does your argument have anything to do with his passing abilities? Way to just throw out other random hate for KG.
-- Scoring. Drza compared part of this through a pace adjustment.
G35 wrote:I'm not comparing the two teams defensive abilities. I'm saying that KG was a perfect fit for Thibodeau's system, recognize the difference. KG"s impact was nowhere near what it was when playing under TT.
I'm addressing the point that KG was compared to Walton. It's not random hate. KG did not lift his teammates up to the same level that Walton did.
In fact I can sum up my whole point that it was intimated that KG had to have the abilities of three legendary big men at the same time for the Wolves to win. That is exaggeration of KG homerism to the fullest. I don't see you addressing that. And "flashing" the skillset of another player is not quite the same as having it now is it. Didn't Anthony Randolph "flash" the ability of Magic Johnson, doesn't quite mean he did it consistently or at the same peak level. So why make the comparison?.....
RayBan-Sematra wrote:He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after Duncan & Shaq.
So much truth in this post it might hurt.kaima wrote:Using the Nash ORTG(!!!!!) standard that RealGM's regulars love with KG on D: he was pretty overrated, and remains so.
The RAPM arguments made for KG don't dovetail with team DRTG, yet the same adherents of these two systems, at least when convenient, only look at the former while ignoring the latter.
From my standpoint? I think KG's an outstanding player, particularly as an overall defender, but that he was always too passive on offensive and highly questionable as a team defensive lynchpin, either as a prototypical frontcourt player or as backcourt trapper (he, honestly, reminds me of a lesser Pippen as far as many defensive issues). His Point Forward abilities often became a weakness with deference on offense in close games rather than control and facilitation.
I'm not a fan of DRTG/ORTG as THE measure on either side of the ball, but for those who are it's certainly amusing to watch them ignore the elephant in the room while hyping KG as the best defensive player of his generation; frankly, the TWolves were typically mediocre to weak in defensive standards year by year with KG, as can be seen in play by play.
In summation, was KG a truly dominant offensive player? No, he wasn't. And the defense did not show up in a truly dominant or disruptive fashion against good to great opponents during his time with the Wolves.
This, but the playoff wins had as much to do with Troy Hudson's getting lucky and Derek Fisher being one of the worst defenders ever as it did Garnett's 27/16/5, and no, it's not really arguable with Duncan, he was clearly better.WhateverBro wrote:Pretty much as Good as in '04. Arguably the leagues best player, its between him and Duncan.
The fact that Garnett dragged that team to 50+ Wins and a 4-2 loss in the playoffs vs Lakers is remarkable. A team featuring Hudson, szczerbiak, nesterovic, kendal Gill and Anthony peeler shouldnt sniff 50 wins. Thats a core that should be in the running for worst record in the league.
JordansBulls wrote:RayBan-Sematra wrote:He was the 3rd best player in the league that year after Duncan & Shaq.
Duncan I agree with, but Shaq ahead of KG that year? Shaq had another top 5 player by his side that season and the Twolves still ended up with a better record. And it isn't like the Twolves had depth either.