James Harden vs Carmelo Anthony, who would you rather have?

OptimusOne6 · Post #61 » by **OptimusOne6** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:51 am

BlackIce wrote:
OptimusOne6 wrote:Regardless, Harden isn't better than Melo and he is far more ball-dominant than he is. Harden's game would be affected more if you take away more of his touches with the ball than Melo would.

Check out the usage rate for both players, something like 28% (Harden) vs 34.4% (Melo). So that's patently false.

It would be false, if usage percentage actually determined how ball-dominant you were, which it doesn't.

Usage percentage does not determine how many times a player dribbles out a shot clock and stop the ball-movement like Harden always does. It shows you how many shots you've taken, turnovers, etc. not necessarily correlated with ball-dominance.

Melo was a ball-stopper in the past, but if anybody has seen him play this season, it has stopped and it hasn't been as bad as it was in seasons past. Harden has always been a ball-stopper though, even in OKC.

MisterWestside · Post #62 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:10 am

OptimusOne6 wrote:It would be false, if usage percentage actually determined how ball-dominant you were, which it doesn't.

Usage percentage does not determine how many times a player dribbles out a shot clock and stop the ball-movement like Harden always does. It shows you how many shots you've taken, turnovers, etc. not necessarily correlated with ball-dominance.

Melo was a ball-stopper in the past, but if anybody has seen him play this season, it has stopped and it hasn't been as bad as it was in seasons past. Harden has always been a ball-stopper though, even in OKC.

Being ball-dominant does not simply mean dribbling the ball alot. Harden's a playmaker, and playmakers will naturally have the ball in their hands more duration-wise. They key point is not duration though, it's the amount of plays (and, as a subcategory, unassisted plays) your team is running for everyone on the offense. The Rockets run more plays for everyone compared to Melo's Knicks, and Harden plays more off-ball.

OptimusOne6 · Post #63 » by **OptimusOne6** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:59 am

MisterWestside wrote:Being ball-dominant does not simply mean dribbling the ball alot. Harden's a playmaker, and playmakers will naturally have the ball in their hands more duration-wise.

It's not about dribbling the ball a lot, it's about how the rest of your team stands around, waits, and does nothing.

When Harden has the ball, he dribbles the shot clock out, gets a pick and roll, either pulls up for 3, does the same two-step move in the paint, or gets trapped and turns it over in a pass because he isn't that good of a passer/playmaker. The rest of the team just stands there and is stagnant.

It's not that bad when Melo has the ball. He may occasionally do a bunch of jab-steps and triple threat moves, but he doesn't stop the ball-movement nearly as bad as Harden does. The Knicks are the best ball-movement team in the NBA and they thrive off of Melo getting attention/doubles in the wing/post area.

Maybe if Harden learned to shoot a mid-range shot then maybe he could have the same impact on the court, but he can't make a mid-range shot, so he doesn't.

MisterWestside · Post #64 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:01 pm

You must've missed the other, important part of my post in which I stated the following:

They key point is not duration though, it's the amount of plays (and, as a subcategory, unassisted plays) your team is running for everyone on the offense. The Rockets run more plays for everyone compared to Melo's Knicks, and Harden plays more off-ball.

The Knicks aren't more team-centric than the Rockets, because usually at the end of whatever play they're running, Melo's chucking up a shot. And often an unassisted shot. It makes up a large part of their offense.

And your characterization of Harden is laughably inaccurate.

deNIEd · Post #65 » by **deNIEd** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:58 pm

If I'm a big market (NY, BYK, LA, CHI, etc.) I want Carmelo.

If I'm a small/mid-market (SAC, MIL, UTA, SAS, etc.) I want Harden.

OptimusOne6 · Post #66 » by **OptimusOne6** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:05 pm

MisterWestside wrote:You must've missed the other, important part of my post in which I stated the following:

They key point is not duration though, it's the amount of plays (and, as a subcategory, unassisted plays) your team is running for everyone on the offense. The Rockets run more plays for everyone compared to Melo's Knicks, and Harden plays more off-ball.

The Knicks aren't more team-centric than the Rockets, because usually at the end of whatever play they're running, Melo's chucking up a shot. And often an unassisted shot. It makes up a large part of their offense.

And your characterization of Harden is laughably inaccurate.

The Rockets run more plays than the Knicks? :lol:

The only play the Rockets run are James Harden pick and roll and sometimes Jeremy Lin pick and roll. I don't think you understand how thin their playbook is, it's thinner than the all-star game playbooks.

Melo takes an unassisted shot at the end of the shot clock, and so does Harden, so what exactly is your point?

It's getting to a point where Harden fans have to make stuff up just to defend him and it's getting pathetic.

draftbarnes · Post #67 » by **draftbarnes** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:10 pm

i like both players, but this is def melo for me

koogiking · Post #68 » by **koogiking** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:16 pm

MisterWestside wrote:You must've missed the other, important part of my post in which I stated the following:

They key point is not duration though, it's the amount of plays (and, as a subcategory, unassisted plays) your team is running for everyone on the offense. The Rockets run more plays for everyone compared to Melo's Knicks, and Harden plays more off-ball.

The Knicks aren't more team-centric than the Rockets, because usually at the end of whatever play they're running, Melo's chucking up a shot. And often an unassisted shot. It makes up a large part of their offense.

And your characterization of Harden is laughably inaccurate.

Harden is assisted only 30% of his shot makes. Carmelo is assisted on 40% of his.

MisterWestside · Post #69 » by **MisterWestside** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:53 pm

koogiking wrote:Harden is assisted only 30% of his shot makes. Carmelo is assisted on 40% of his.

And? That's not even the main point I was making either; simply that Melo is more dominant in his team's offense than Harden. More plays are designed for him to shoot the ball or to be directly involved in an offensive possession.

TheToothFairy · Post #70 » by **TheToothFairy** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:44 am

orangeparka · Post #71 » by **orangeparka** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:25 am

Melo easily.

For now...

AussieBuck · Post #72 » by **AussieBuck** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:57 am

Seems that Melo is enjoying a bit of good old fashioned winners bias here.

JordansBulls · Post #73 » by **JordansBulls** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:26 pm

AussieBuck wrote:Seems that Melo is enjoying a bit of good old fashioned winners bias here.

You think it would be different if Harden was on the Thunder now or this was the Knicks of last year vs Rockets of this year?

NYKnickerbocker · Post #74 » by **NYKnickerbocker** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:37 pm

I would take melo. Can lead his teams to at least the playoffs as the main dude. Harden is good. But melo is a better player. And career wise

NYK_89 · Post #75 » by **NYK_89** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:14 pm

Huh? Carmelo right now is basically the level Harden can hope to be if his career pans out in 3-5 years.. This is just not even a question right now.

JustCame · Post #76 » by **JustCame** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:01 pm

NYK_89 wrote:Huh? Carmelo right now is basically the level Harden can hope to be if his career pans out in 3-5 years.. This is just not even a question right now.

It's been a little over a 1/4 of the season. Fact of the matter is, Harden is playing as good right now as Melo plays every year. I very much doubt Melo will continue this pace, as he's shooting 45% from 3 and is usually hovering in the low-mid 30s. Once his efficiency goes down, you'll see just how close they actually are.

lethalizer · Post #77 » by **lethalizer** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:57 am

I'd probably take Harden, just because building a team around him is easier IMHO.

An above-average PNR finisher, a PG whose shot is good and doesn't mind not handling the ball and some decent defending wings would be a good start to build a team around Harden.

For Melo, you need a complete team which can already live without you but NEEDS you to put you over the top. Which the Knicks more or less currently have right now.

Again, I'm not comparing the abilities of the players. Just looking at it from a different angle.

JordansBulls · Post #78 » by **JordansBulls** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:19 pm

lethalizer wrote:I'd probably take Harden, just because building a team around him is easier IMHO.

An above-average PNR finisher, a PG whose shot is good and doesn't mind not handling the ball and some decent defending wings would be a good start to build a team around Harden.

For Melo, you need a complete team which can already live without you but NEEDS you to put you over the top. Which the Knicks more or less currently have right now.

Again, I'm not comparing the abilities of the players. Just looking at it from a different angle.

How is it easier to build a team around Harden in comparison to Melo?

J0rdan4life42o · Post #79 » by **J0rdan4life42o** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:02 am

lethalizer wrote:I'd probably take Harden, just because building a team around him is easier IMHO.

An above-average PNR finisher, a PG whose shot is good and doesn't mind not handling the ball and some decent defending wings would be a good start to build a team around Harden.

For Melo, you need a complete team which can already live without you but NEEDS you to put you over the top. Which the Knicks more or less currently have right now.

Again, I'm not comparing the abilities of the players. Just looking at it from a different angle.

NY is far from being a complete team...they simply surrounded Anthony with the right blend of role players that compliment his game...

I really don't get your point that it's "easier to build a team around Harden...none of your examples prove its easier to build around Harden, especially when it's clear as day Anthony doesn't have a complete team around him...yet the Knicks GM was able to build a team around Melo in under 2 years. Let's see how long it takes for Houston to do the same with Harden

JordansBulls · Post #80 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:49 pm

J0rdan4life42o wrote:
lethalizer wrote:I'd probably take Harden, just because building a team around him is easier IMHO.

An above-average PNR finisher, a PG whose shot is good and doesn't mind not handling the ball and some decent defending wings would be a good start to build a team around Harden.

For Melo, you need a complete team which can already live without you but NEEDS you to put you over the top. Which the Knicks more or less currently have right now.

Again, I'm not comparing the abilities of the players. Just looking at it from a different angle.

NY is far from being a complete team...they simply surrounded Anthony with the right blend of role players that compliment his game...

I really don't get your point that it's "easier to build a team around Harden...none of your examples prove its easier to build around Harden, especially when it's clear as day Anthony doesn't have a complete team around him...yet the Knicks GM was able to build a team around Melo in under 2 years. Let's see how long it takes for Houston to do the same with Harden

also Melo as the man has made the playoffs yearly, we will have to wait to see if this can be the case with Harden. Also the whole East/West doesn't apply here because Melo was in the west for most of his career thus far.