My new project: top-5 1-year player peaks ever

[Gregoire]

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[Gregoire]

Please, vote:

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[Gregoire]

Now, with ending of 2014 Lebrons season, which was maybe his peak, itsd time to reevaluate top-5 peaks I think. How Lebron 14 compared to top peaks : MJ 91, Shaq 00, Wilt 67 ect?

[jals]

Just to be clear - what are the rules the "second postseason" would be played under? Or are we going to assume the rules would be whatever was in place during the player season we pick (e.g., '67 Wilt would be under 1967 rules)?

If the latter, then here's my list. Note that I only include players whom I saw play and was old enough to really understand / digest the game on a high level (roughly 1980 onwards).

91 Jordan - +7, +2.5
00 Shaq - +6.5, +3
13 Lebron - + 6.5, +2.5
94 Hakeem - +5.5, +3.5
03 Duncan - + 5, +3.5

HM: 86 Bird, 87 Magic, 04 KG, 95 DRob.

Jordan and Shaq are a bit ahead of the others. I put Jordan over Shaq only because of free throw / end of game situations.

Lebron hasn't quite had the ridiculous RS and PS in the same year unlike 91 MJ and 00 Shaq. If you took 13 RS and maybe 12 PS defense / 14 PS offense and put them all together I'd probably rank that very close to MJ and Shaq. But since we can't do that, I think there is a clear gap from MJ/Shaq to Lebron.

Similarly, 94 Hakeem and 03 Duncan are there because of the strength of their PS. The RS was very good for both but it's the postseason that makes those years all-timers. I don't even know if 94 Hakeem was better than 93 Hakeem in the postseason, arguably he played even better in 93, but his teammates didn't step up as much.

I couldn't put 86 Bird, 87 Magic, 04 KG, or 95 DRob ahead of the others for a variety of reasons. 86 Bird and 87 Magic might be tied with 91 Jordan as GOAT offensive seasons but the defense was definitely a step below for Bird and Magic (particularly Magic). KG and DRob didn't replicate their RS dominance in the PS.

[Gregoire]

Just to be clear - what are the rules the "second postseason" would be played under? Or are we going to assume the rules would be whatever was in place during the player season we pick (e.g., '67 Wilt would be under 1967 rules)?

If the latter, then here's my list. Note that I only include players whom I saw play and was old enough to really understand / digest the game on a high level (roughly 1980 onwards).

91 Jordan - +7, +2.5
00 Shaq - +6.5, +3
13 Lebron - + 6.5, +2.5
94 Hakeem - +5.5, +3.5
03 Duncan - + 5, +3.5

Good post and basically my rankings, but I consider gap between MJ and Shaq bigger than between Shaq and Lebron, so I have MJ 91 - 7+2,5, Shaq 00 - 6+3, Lebron 6,5 +2,5 and Hakeem 5,5 + 3,5...

[Gregoire]

Waiting for these guys for voting


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An Unbiased Fan
DHodgkins
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G35
JVL
Okada
Witzig-Okashi

[Joao Saraiva]

Here's my top 5:
1. Michael Jordan in 91.
RS: 31.5 PPG 6 RPG 5.5 APG 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 2.5 TOPG 31.6 PER, 60.5ts% 32.1 WS/48. That's a statline that is as crazy as it gets. Volume scoring is at great level, efficiency is awesome, TOs are low for his production, historic PER and WS/48 is also fantastic. And how about his SPG? 2.7 is great, and the great part is that watching him he actually defended very well, it was not gambling to compromise his D.

Playoffs: 31.1 PPG 6.4 RPG 8.4 APG 2.4 SPG 1.4 BPG 2.5 TOPG 32 PER 60%ts 33.3 WS/48. After a spectacular regular season, Jordan even raised his production in the playoffs! And not raising his TOs. Honorable mentions to his ECF against one of the best defensive teams ever: Pistons. MJ scored 29.8 PPG at 64.6ts% and assisted 7 times per game.

Also in the finals MJ had more APG than Magic until the last game of the series: Magic had 20 assists in that last game. Still MJ finishes the finals with 31.2 PPG and 11.4 APG at great efficiency.

I don't see a case in any season against this one. This was just an epic year by MJ. While he scored more in other years, I don't think even against himself this season can be disputed.

2. 2009 LeBron James. I had a tough time picking it over James in 2012, and I have picked 2012 in the past. Anyway:
RS: 28.4 PPG 7.6 RPG 7.2 APG 1.7 SPG 1.1 BPG 3 TOPG 31.7 PER 59.1ts% and 31.8 WS/48. 66 wins in the regular season with a cast composed by old big Z, old Ben Wallace, Delonte West (average SG at best) and Mo Williams (Just see where Mo's career has gone after leaving Cle). I have to be impressed with that record. LeBron had arguably the quickest 1st step EVER, and he scored in the paint with a better % than Shaq at his peak. How insane is that? He was also #2 at DPOY, and it was well deserved.

Playoffs: 35.3 PPG 9.1 RPG 7.3 APG 1.6 SPG 0.9 BPG 2.7 TOPG 37.4 PER 61.8 ts% abd 39.9 WS/48. He was playing at GOAT level. His driving was superb, he was hitting huge shots, 3 pointers from half court, fade away 3s in the clutch and having some of his most amazing performances ever. Games 1 and 5 against Orlando were insane, and he also had a great great one vs Atlanta. He was eliminated against Orlando averaging 38.5 PPG 8.3 RPG 8.0 APG 1.2 SPG and 1.2 BPG at 59.1ts%. And that was against a team with DPOY Dwight, defending the paint. Volume/efficiency scoring is truly amazing.

Too bad this season didn't end up with the championship, because if it did it could actually be the one to challange MJ for the GOAT peak. I think it also can be challanged by 2012 LeBron. Game 4 vs Indiana, game 6 vs Boston and great finals where LeBron couldn't get his shot outside the paint going and still scored great volume on good efficiency. MVP, Finals MVP and another #2 at DPOY. Still I had to go with 09. That just shows you how great 09 was.

3. Shaquille O'Neal 2000
RS: 29.7 PPG 13.6 RPG 3.8 APG 0.5 SPG 2.8 BPG 2.8 TOPG 30.6 PER 57.8ts% 28.3 WS/48. Shaq just took a leap with his game playing under Phil Jackson. He was dominating in the paint like it was easy. 57.4 FG% is just amazing. Other teams had to double him in the post a lot of times, they had to foul him because if they didn't he would most likely get the 2 points, and if he got the ball deep in the post... It just seemed like either it was a basket, a foul, or both! Very few teams could SLOW him down. When I say slow it's not playing bad, it's just make him seem human instead of superman.

Playoffs: 30.7 PPG 15.4 RPG 3.1 APG 0.6 SPG 2.4 BPG 2.4 TOPG 30.5 PER 55.6ts% 22.4WS/48. He started against SAC. Divac and Webber are a great frontcourt, and gave the Lakers a competitive series. They grabbed between themselves 16.8 RPG. But Shaq ALONE outrebounded them, at 17.4 RPG. He also blocked 13 times in those series, while Webber and Divac combined for 14 blocks. That while scoring 29.4 PPG. Then 30.2 PPG and 16.2 RPG against the Suns. Simply dominant. Then 4-3 against Portland with great games and bad games. Still averaged 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG. That shows you how great he was, 25.9 PPG and 12.4 RPG was subpar for Shaq in the playoffs! And then in the finals... Indiana just had no frontcourt capable to guard Shaq (like that was something easy to find...). 38 PPG 16.7 RPG 2.7 BPG and only 13 turn overs in 6 games! 61.1FG%. Rewatching this finals will show you the spell of dominance Shaq had at his peak. He has a case for the best finals ever.

4. Hakeem Olajuwon 93-94 season
RS: 27.3 PPG 11.9 RPG 3.6 APG 1.6 SPG 3.7 BPG 3.4 TOPG 25.3 PER 56.5ts% 21 WS/48.
58 wins for Houston in the regular season. Onyle behind the Sonics who had a great team. Hakeem won MVP and DPOY and it was well deserved. Great impact on both sides of the court, leading a team with no 2nd star (despite having a good cast) to that great record. He was scoring, blocking, rebounding, assisting, stealing and living up to his legendary reputation, both on offense and specially on D.

Playoffs: 28.9 PPG 11.0 RPG 4.3 APG 1.7 SPG 4.0 BPG 3.6 TOPG 27.7 PER 56.8 ts% 20.8 WS/48.
Jordan had Pippen. LeBron had Bosh/Wade. Shaq had Kobe Bryant. Hakeem had Kenny Smith, Maxwell, Otis, Horry and Sam Cassel. It's a great cast don't get me wrong, but he won without a 2nd great player like those guys had. And despite being great on offense, the most interesting thing to look at is his D. Karl Malone in the WCF scored 26 PPG but at 50.5ts%. Barkley scored 23.4 PPG at 53.2ts% in the 2nd round vs Houston, and Ewing scored 18.9 at 39%ts in the NBA finals! Those numbers will indeed show the kind of impact Hakeem had on D.

Also he won MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in the same season. That's a very restrict club: only Hakeem has done that. Despite being the 4th in my list, I would have no problem ranking this season over Shaq or even over LeBron 2009 or 2012.

5. Magic Johnson 86-87
RS: 23.9 PPG 12.2 APG 6.3 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.5 BPG 3.8 TOPG 27 PER 60.2ts% 26.3 WS/48.
In the regular season the Lakers won 65 games. It wasn't only Magic, they had a great team. Still Magic was the best player on that team, and the greats that played with him profited from his great leadership and amazing passing skills. He was scoring good volume, on great efficiency, and his playmaking was at the level that few ever reached (maybe Stockton?). He won the MVP award this season.

Playoffs: 21.8 PPG 12.2 APG 7.7 RPG 1.7 SPG 0.4 BPG 2.8 TOPG 26.2 PER 60.7ts% 26.5 WS/48.
Lakers just destroyed their oponents in West. So Magic scored less points than he could have. But let's see his finals performances:
26.2 PPG 13 APG 8 RPG 2.3 SPG 0.3 BPG on 59%ts. He had 2 TOPG. So his assist/TO ratio is not comparable to any other player I've ever seen playing in the finals. He outscored Bird, with more efficiency, he had a ton more assists, and was only 2 RPG behind him and turned the ball much less. He even had more steals than Bird! What a great display to end a great season. Magic ended up winning the finals MVP, obviously.

EDIT: I didn't include Russel or Wilt. Basketball was so diferent back and I didn't watch enough. It's a diferent game and I'm not going to put them in this top 5 simply looking at their stats.

[Joao Saraiva]

Now, with ending of 2014 Lebrons season, which was maybe his peak, itsd time to reevaluate top-5 peaks I think. How Lebron 14 compared to top peaks : MJ 91, Shaq 00, Wilt 67 ect?

I don't think it was the best season by LeBron. I was far more impressed with LeBron's D in 2009 or 2012. Even on offense I was more impressed with those 2 year s by LeBron, so I don't think he goes aheaad of MJ or Shaq with his 2014 season. I'm don't even know if it was his best season if it would make top 5 ever.

[trex_8063]

Reposted from a PM.....

Crap, I was hoping you wouldn't put me on the spot.

OK, an order......

#1: I guess I'll go with Michael Jordan ('91). Certainly the stat-line is credible: 31.5/6.0/5.5/2.7/1.0 on .605 TS% and only 2.5 topg.....and that for championship team. Advanced metrics are equally impressive: 31.6 PER and whopping .321 WS/48 (in 37 mpg).
I want to say someone (Dipper?) went thru and calculated MJ's +/- for the playoffs (of just the 90's??); EDIT: no, it wasn't actual +/-, but rather just the on/off-court stats for point differential, as well as team ORtg and DRtg, I think.....anyway, I remember the results were staggering.
His playoff numbers were pretty consistently equal or better than his already hyper-elite rs numbers; that ability and will to rise to the challenge no matter what was always one of his most impressive features. Early 90's one of the toughest eras, too, imo.
And then I think the final kicker for me is that he did all of these remarkable things in an era that still allowed hand-checking, that allowed some of the game's greatest shot-blockers to camp in front of the rim, and an era that more or less gave a pass to dirty tactics (the Pistons' "Jordan Rules"). I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility for a peak Jordan in today's league to avg (even at a moderate 90-92 pace) something like 34/6/6/2.5/1 on near .600 TS% and probably with only about 3.0 topg. And STILL be one of the best perimeter defenders, too.

#2: Shaq ('00). The guy was a beast, what more can we say? The rest of the league simply had no answer for him. I don't think there's been anyone in the last 20 years as statistically dominant as he was that year. Kept it up in playoffs, too, won a title.
Hand-checking and defensive 3-second rules have been altered for the sake of fans/spectators: the league's initiative to make the game more entertaining to watch. But otherwise I don't recall that the league had been forced to alter rules BECAUSE OF A SINGLE PERSON since the days of Wilt......until Shaq came along.

#3: Wilt. I think it only fitting that Shaq and Wilt be adjacent, as they're such similar physical specimens, similar player-types, both so statistically dominant, both altered the game forever.
I still can't decide what season I want to go with; I'm fine with any one of '62, '64, '67.
'62-->the most statistically dominant season of all-time. Obviously a gimmick of a season, though, major stat-padding going on. Still.....very impressive, and this gimmick didn't destroy the team, either (they were still contenders, or at least nearly so).
'64-->showing the first signs that he could change and be more team-oriented, showing yet another capacity or manner in which he could affect the game (passing). Still remarkable statistically, performed very big-time in the playoffs and they made it to the finals.
'67--->the conventionally held "best season" for him: lead one of the greatest teams ever assembled to a title, while leading them in points, rebounds, AND ASSISTS (presumably blocks, too).
Some might give Wilt a bump down for playing in a smaller and less athletic era; but I'm not inclined to dock him by TOO much because I think his portability across eras is fantastic.

#4: Lebron ('13)-->So very very clearly (almost far and away) the greatest player in the world despite KD playing really well; so rare you see someone so clearly distance themselves from the pack in this day and age. 26.8/8.0/7.3 on .640 TS%, and only 3.0 topg. PER 31.6 with gaudy .322 WS/48 (in 37.9 mpg). And All-Defensive 1st team. This is insane stuff. Carried nearly that level of play thru the playoffs and to a title, as well. Honestly, I feel a little gross that I'm putting him way back at #4. Rule changes that favor perimeter players, tbh, is perhaps the main reason I don't have him right next to MJ at #2.

#5: Kareem ('72). This feels gross to have him way back at #5, too. I don't think I need to argue too hard that he deserves a top 5 spot, though, do I? 34.8/16.6/4.6 on .603 TS%. PER 29.9 and absolutely WICKED .340 WS/48 (and this on 44.2 mpg). Insane pace in that era, true, although I don't think there's a linear relationship between pace and raw numbers (especially for big-men). That insane pace means a lot of fast-break and/or hurried jump-shots....not necessarily always getting set in the half-court to dump down to Kareem.
Kareem was still a decent defender at this time, too. You can argue the era was weakish (but realistically, not by THAT much, imo).

If you want this posted to the thread, that's fine by me. Just copy and paste it (or I can).

EDIT: For me, these five player peaks are really very close. I feel like these are clearly the five greatest, but I'd not argue anyone on the order. You can make a #1 case for any of these guys, imo.

[Gregoire]

Here is the top-5 individual peaks ever of RealGM PC board posters voting to 22 june 2014.

1. Michael Jordan - 169 points

2. Shaqiulle O'Neal - 132 points

3. Lebron James - 74 points

4. Wilt Chamberlain - 69 points

5. Hakeem Olajuwon - 38 points

Other players, receiving votes:

6. Larry Bird - 25 points

7. Bill Russell - 18 points

8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 16 points

9. Magic Johnson - 4 points

10. Oscar Robertson -2 points

11. Tim Duncan - 2 point

12. Julius Erving - 1 point

13. Kobe Bryant - 1 point

- Last 3 votet interchanged Lebron and Wilt, Duncan moved up to 11 spot.

[Jaivl]

1. '91 Jordan
2. '13 Lebron
3. '00 Shaq
4. '67 Wilt
5. '93 Hakeem

Virtual tie between Shaq and Lebron in #2, and between Wilt, Hakeem and Kareem in #4. Sorry, Cap. All 6 peaks are very close IMO.

Quick summary:

Jordan: What can I say... Maybe the GOAT offensive season, insane volume scoring (31.5 ppg) in insane efficiency (+7.1 TS%) while taking amazing care of the ball (<9% TOV in both regular season and postseason). His passing numbers were even better in the postseason (8.4 assists / 2.5 turnovers). Great impact on defense as well. Not a hole in his game.

Shaq: Jordan-like scoring numbers (29.7 points in +5.5 TS%). Great distributor in the low block (3.8 assists / <10% TOV). Clearly his best year on defense (HE DEFENDED THE P&R!!!). #1 in RAPM with a clear margin. Slightly overrated playoff run ("only" 55.6 TS%), but still all-time great (8.1% TOV, 30.7 points, 15.4 rebounds).

Lebron: Ultra-efficient scoring (+10.6 TS%), great overall game (26.8 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.3 assists), active and versatile on defense (elite defense in 3-4 positions). Sub-par playoff performance (by his standards). Well, it was last season, we all know what he did lol.

Wilt: My god, he was a monster. All clicked for him during this season. Most efficient scoring ever (24.1 points... on +14.4 TS%!!!!), 24.2 rebounds, 7.8 assists... even accounting for pace, that is insane. Presumably a high TO rate. By all accounts, near-GOAT level defense (Olajuwon level, maybe). And we all know the narrative.

Hakeem: Arguably the first year he was the BITW. Great offensive year (26.8 points, +4.1 TS%), extremely impactful on defense as always (>6.5% BLK in '93 RS and postseason). Better postseason than the following year IMO (he scored less and lost the ball more, but the rebounding and defensive advantages are hard to overcome).

[Gregoire]

Here is the top-5 individual peaks ever of RealGM PC board posters voting to 13 july 2014.

1. Michael Jordan - 174 points

2. Shaqiulle O'Neal - 136 points

3. Lebron James - 77 points

4. Wilt Chamberlain - 71 points

5. Hakeem Olajuwon - 39 points

Other players, receiving votes:

6. Larry Bird - 25 points

7. Bill Russell - 18 points

8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 16 points

9. Magic Johnson - 4 points

10. Oscar Robertson -2 points

11. Tim Duncan - 2 point

12. Julius Erving - 1 point

13. Kobe Bryant - 1 point






Waiting for these guys for voting


Double Clutch
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
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Modulate
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Rapcity_11
An Unbiased Fan
DHodgkins
ISB
G35
JVL
Okada
Witzig-Okashi
Owly
Baller2014
TrueLAfan
drza
magicmerl
Rico381

[Gregoire]

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[Gregoire]

Here is the top-5 individual peaks ever of RealGM PC board posters voting to 17 september 2014.

1. Michael Jordan - 174 points

2. Shaqiulle O'Neal - 136 points

3. Lebron James - 77 points

4. Wilt Chamberlain - 71 points

5. Hakeem Olajuwon - 39 points

Other players, receiving votes:

6. Larry Bird - 25 points

7. Bill Russell - 18 points

8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 16 points

9. Magic Johnson - 4 points

10. Oscar Robertson -2 points

11. Tim Duncan - 2 point

12. Julius Erving - 1 point

13. Kobe Bryant - 1 point






Waiting for these guys for voting


Double Clutch
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
OnePostLegend
SummitAllstar
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
An Unbiased Fan
DHodgkins
ISB
G35
JVL
Okada
Witzig-Okashi
Owly
Baller2014
TrueLAfan
drza
magicmerl
Rico381
Samurai

[Joao Saraiva]

Don't people take playoffs into account? Why does everyone keep saying 2013 LeBron when he performed much better in the playoffs in both 09 and 12?

[Gregoire]

Here is the top-5 individual peaks ever of RealGM PC board posters voting to 17 december 2014.

1. Michael Jordan - 174 points

2. Shaqiulle O'Neal - 136 points

3. Lebron James - 77 points

4. Wilt Chamberlain - 71 points

5. Hakeem Olajuwon - 39 points

Other players, receiving votes:

6. Larry Bird - 25 points

7. Bill Russell - 18 points

8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 16 points

9. Magic Johnson - 4 points

10. Oscar Robertson -2 points

11. Tim Duncan - 2 point

12. Julius Erving - 1 point

13. Kobe Bryant - 1 point






Waiting for these guys for voting


Double Clutch
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
OnePostLegend
SummitAllstar
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
An Unbiased Fan
DHodgkins
ISB
G35
JVL
Okada
Witzig-Okashi
Owly
Baller2014
TrueLAfan
drza
magicmerl
Rico381
Samurai

[Gregoire]

It would be very nice, if these guys would give here some opinions and lists...


Double Clutch
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
Mutnt
accrossthecourt
OnePostLegend
SummitAllstar
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
JVL
Okada
Witzig-Okashi
Owly
Baller2014
TrueLAfan
drza
magicmerl
Rico381
Samurai
MrKnox
Hornet Mania
GYK
JeepCSC

[JeepCSC]

This looks fun. I'll go back and reread the thread this weekend.

[Joao Saraiva]

Just to be clear - what are the rules the "second postseason" would be played under? Or are we going to assume the rules would be whatever was in place during the player season we pick (e.g., '67 Wilt would be under 1967 rules)?

If the latter, then here's my list. Note that I only include players whom I saw play and was old enough to really understand / digest the game on a high level (roughly 1980 onwards).

91 Jordan - +7, +2.5
00 Shaq - +6.5, +3
13 Lebron - + 6.5, +2.5
94 Hakeem - +5.5, +3.5
03 Duncan - + 5, +3.5

HM: 86 Bird, 87 Magic, 04 KG, 95 DRob.

Jordan and Shaq are a bit ahead of the others. I put Jordan over Shaq only because of free throw / end of game situations.

Lebron hasn't quite had the ridiculous RS and PS in the same year unlike 91 MJ and 00 Shaq. If you took 13 RS and maybe 12 PS defense / 14 PS offense and put them all together I'd probably rank that very close to MJ and Shaq. But since we can't do that, I think there is a clear gap from MJ/Shaq to Lebron.

Similarly, 94 Hakeem and 03 Duncan are there because of the strength of their PS. The RS was very good for both but it's the postseason that makes those years all-timers. I don't even know if 94 Hakeem was better than 93 Hakeem in the postseason, arguably he played even better in 93, but his teammates didn't step up as much.

I couldn't put 86 Bird, 87 Magic, 04 KG, or 95 DRob ahead of the others for a variety of reasons. 86 Bird and 87 Magic might be tied with 91 Jordan as GOAT offensive seasons but the defense was definitely a step below for Bird and Magic (particularly Magic). KG and DRob didn't replicate their RS dominance in the PS.

So LeBron didn't have a great post season and regular season in the same year?

2012 LeBron did it, and 2009 LeBron did it too.

[Gregoire]

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