The Lebron Thread (2013-14 Pt. 4)

[rich316]

I never understood why GSW drew a line in the sand over Klay Thompson. Klay Thompson?

We never know though, maybe Minny said no to an offer with or without Klay but if the owner in GSW (I hear he is one of those super involved owners) wanted to keep Klay over Love then he is an idiot.

Maybe they just were a little scared to make the trade in the first place.... because they're not a very deep team as it is. If they replaced Klay/Barnes/Lee with Love, they're really treading on thin ice. If one of Curry/Love got injured, they'd be really screwed.

I think they must be scared in some form. There's no way they can be confident that trading for Love isn't worth it, but they must be taking seriously the notion that Love's just a stat padder - a glorified David Lee if you would.

I understand their hesitation about moving Klay - he is probably the best 3/D guy in the league, with the potential to become more. Those are the kind of guys who you want in a championship starting 5.

People's dismissal of Love as a "stat padder" blows me away, though. If he does end up on either the Warriors or Cavs, it will be another KG-to-Boston type re-evaluation. I'm not saying that Love is on KG's level as a player, but that the doubts about what kind of talent he is will be quickly replaced by "holy crap, this guy is GOOD." I haven't even watched a lot of Timberwolves games, but in what I have watched of him, it's clear that his abilities are extremely uncommon. His shooting, passing, and rebounding are all truly special. Him playing with either Curry or Lebron is my favorite storyline of next season. There are real "good stats, bad team" guys, but I don't think Love is one of them. Either GSW or CLE will probably become a top-3 offense through his addition.

[BroncosLite58]

Do people really buy into the crap that Lebron picked Cleveland because of his love for Northeast Ohio and because it is home? This guy already admitted back in 2010 that he hated the Cavs when he was younger and that Akron is separate from Cleveland.

He went back to Cleveland because it has a far better shot at giving him a title for the next 5 years than the Heat do, now and in 5 years. All Lebron is doing is handpicking his legacy which no NBA player has ever done. He is also being a smart business man by going back to Cleveland because now everyone is in love with him again and he has become far more marketable than ever.

Your cynicism detector is correctly going off, but I don't think it's for the right reason.

He didn't pick the Cavs because it's the best place to win titles, because it's not.
He picked the Cavs because he thought it was best for his legacy...which he now realizes can be influenced by things such as being able to be an icon for in the midwest where he grew up.

Of course he wouldn't have done it if the Cavs had absolutely nothing going for them, but it doesn't make much sense to say "he only picked them so he could win titles" unless he's literally pick THE easiest team to win titles with, and I guarantee you that were he not from Cleveland in the first place, Kyrie & Wiggins wouldn't have brought him there now.

He also wanted the max contract though, did he not? Houston could not offer him the flat out max, so it was between CLE and MIA because of that. I agree with the rest of what you are saying, but the Cavs were definitely a much better decision when it comes to winning titles than Miami was, not even close.

Regardless, this dude is the only player in NBA history to literally handpick his legacy.

[bondom34]

Just some clarification on the thought process for Minnesota with GSW from what I've seen on the trade board:

1. No one (outside of Golden State) understands why Klay would be off limits, it really makes no sense. There are many claims of perimeter defense and how amazing Thompson is, but no one really buys it.

2. It makes no sense for Minny w/o Klay. But, they don't like that deal as much as others since he's up for an extension next year. Given how thin the SG position is and the deals going out this offseason, its quite possible someone throws a max deal at him and you have to either pay him or lose him. Plus he's made it seem as if he wouldn't be too happy in Minnesota.

3. It's not the view of the front office in Minnesota, but most fans want a true rebuild if they lose Love. Just tear it down and start over. Lee is highly paid and a little too productive for a really bad team. A deal around Lee/Klay/Barnes/Green/picks (or some combination of that) doesn't make you any good, but doesn't make you that awful either and likely puts you in the range of late lotto picks with no high draft choices, no real cap relief due to Lee's deal, and the best prospect being Thompson.

That's about what I can gather from the trade board's thoughts.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think Cleveland might seriously overpay for wiggins since they gave up way to much to get rid of jacks contract.

I see them trading wiggins and then two of waiters / Bennett / Thompson plus two first round picks

Which seems like a drastic overpay for a guy forcing himself out the door


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It's really a game of chicken isn't it?

You'd think acquiring LeBron would put Cleveland in a position of strength in negotiations, but that's not what it feels like here. It feels like they want to get their future started as soon as possible, and if that's truly the case, then the fact that they want this to happen first means that Minny has every reason to drag their heels.

It's remarkable because before LeBron's announcement, I marveled how the shoe was on the other foot with Golden State. There you could feel Minny saying "C'mon, we're not going to give up Love without getting at least one player we can hype up, Klay needs to be in this deal" while the Warriors were saying "We're pretty content, and we know you know that you're going to have to deal him eventually which means your security will just erode over time. Call us back when you're serious."

Incidentally I still think GS is insane. The notion that you'd refuse to give up Klay for a guy about the same age but vastly more accomplished makes me wonder just how much of their own Kool Aid they've drunk. They literally have zero reason to think they'll ever win a title with their current lineup without some kind of big addition, and so it should be pretty much a given that they'd be looking to move their 2nd best guard if the right opportunity comes up. Yet all the talk I'm seeing isn't so much about Love but about Klay essentially being untouchable. Crazy.

So yeah back on point: If the Cavs think they can weight without it doing serious damage, they ought to seriously consider it. Wiggins alone should be enough for them to outbid all other comers, so as long as enough salary filler's in there and it's a positive rather than a negative, that should do it.

I agree that trading Klay for Love is a no brainer, but I don't see why GSW would have no reason to think they can't win a championship with their current roster.

Their biggest problem, and it is a problem, is their entire roster staying healthy. But talent wise, they certainly have enough. Bogut was the missing piece for them I thought, and he actually played a lot of games last year, but not the most important ones in the playoffs.

Curry, Iguodolla, Bogut are all big time impact players. Thompson is about as good as you're going to get at the 2 guard position for now. David Lee isn't nearly as good as his stats suggest, but he's likely an above average power forward. Their bench could use some work, but at least Draymond Green turned out well, and I thought they made the biggest correction in their team by firing Mark Jackson (albeit, they hired another rookie coach in Steve Kerr, which I think is foolish, have no idea why these NBA teams are doing this). I believe they also added Shaun Livingston to their bench, who should be a very nice third guard for them.


I really think if GSW came into the playoffs, they would be the best team - well maybe the Spurs would be better, but I think they would probably beat everyone else. I thought the Clippers were very fortunate to face GSW without Bogut.

They have a legit #1 option, star complimentary players, a good third guard, and the other starters are all above average at their positions. I think they are certainly a championship team.

[Doctor MJ]

Just some clarification on the thought process for Minnesota with GSW from what I've seen on the trade board:

1. No one (outside of Golden State) understands why Klay would be off limits, it really makes no sense. There are many claims of perimeter defense and how amazing Thompson is, but no one really buys it.

2. It makes no sense for Minny w/o Klay. But, they don't like that deal as much as others since he's up for an extension next year. Given how thin the SG position is and the deals going out this offseason, its quite possible someone throws a max deal at him and you have to either pay him or lose him. Plus he's made it seem as if he wouldn't be too happy in Minnesota.

3. It's not the view of the front office in Minnesota, but most fans want a true rebuild if they lose Love. Just tear it down and start over. Lee is highly paid and a little too productive for a really bad team. A deal around Lee/Klay/Barnes/Green/picks (or some combination of that) doesn't make you any good, but doesn't make you that awful either and likely puts you in the range of late lotto picks with no high draft choices, no real cap relief due to Lee's deal, and the best prospect being Thompson.

That's about what I can gather from the trade board's thoughts.

Yeah it all makes sense. You add in Rubio evidently wanting a max deal after all this, to me that says you just need to scrap it all...which is one more reason why getting Wiggins is such an incredible win if they get him.

[Doctor MJ]

I agree that trading Klay for Love is a no brainer, but I don't see why GSW would have no reason to think they can't win a championship with their current roster.

Their biggest problem, and it is a problem, is their entire roster staying healthy. But talent wise, they certainly have enough. Bogut was the missing piece for them I thought, and he actually played a lot of games last year, but not the most important ones in the playoffs.

Curry, Iguodolla, Bogut are all big time impact players. Thompson is about as good as you're going to get at the 2 guard position for now. David Lee isn't nearly as good as his stats suggest, but he's likely an above average power forward. Their bench could use some work, but at least Draymond Green turned out well, and I thought they made the biggest correction in their team by firing Mark Jackson (albeit, they hired another rookie coach in Steve Kerr, which I think is foolish, have no idea why these NBA teams are doing this). I believe they also added Shaun Livingston to their bench, who should be a very nice third guard for them.


I really think if GSW came into the playoffs, they would be the best team - well maybe the Spurs would be better, but I think they would probably beat everyone else. I thought the Clippers were very fortunate to face GSW without Bogut.

They have a legit #1 option, star complimentary players, a good third guard, and the other starters are all above average at their positions. I think they are certainly a championship team.

Seriously? This was a team that was basically healthy last regular season, got a 6th seed, and will have 3 of their 4 best players in their 30s next year. When have you ever seen a core like that go unchanged and morph into a champion?

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE where the Warriors are, but no I don't consider them serious contenders as they currently stand. Good enough to get an upset and get to the 2nd round again? Sure. Not enough to get through the West though unless something dramatic happens.

Though one thing I will say: It's within the realm of possibility that a smart offensive scheme could let the team make a major leap forward based on Curry truly being unleashed in some kind of next-generation-Nash manner that he hasn't proven capable of yet I'm not saying that's impossible, but it would take something like that. The team isn't winning a title based on subtle refinements here and there.

[HeartBreakKid]

Seriously? This was a team that was basically healthy last regular season, got a 6th seed, and will have 3 of their 4 best players in their 30s next year. When have you ever seen a core like that go unchanged and morph into a champion?

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Igudolla and Bogut do not need to make improvements, and they likely won't decline much. It's still reasonable that Curry can improve and Klay Thompson is very young. Age is hardly an issue for them.

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE where the Warriors are, but no I don't consider them serious contenders as they currently stand. Good enough to get an upset and get to the 2nd round again? Sure. Not enough to get through the West though unless something dramatic happens.

[/quote]I don't see why not, if they could beat the Clippers why couldn't they win the West?

As for the upset thing, I thought they were clearly a better team than the Nuggets coming into the playoffs. Seeding isn't everything.



What teams in your opinion are contenders?

[RSCD3_]

I agree that trading Klay for Love is a no brainer, but I don't see why GSW would have no reason to think they can't win a championship with their current roster.

Their biggest problem, and it is a problem, is their entire roster staying healthy. But talent wise, they certainly have enough. Bogut was the missing piece for them I thought, and he actually played a lot of games last year, but not the most important ones in the playoffs.

Curry, Iguodolla, Bogut are all big time impact players. Thompson is about as good as you're going to get at the 2 guard position for now. David Lee isn't nearly as good as his stats suggest, but he's likely an above average power forward. Their bench could use some work, but at least Draymond Green turned out well, and I thought they made the biggest correction in their team by firing Mark Jackson (albeit, they hired another rookie coach in Steve Kerr, which I think is foolish, have no idea why these NBA teams are doing this). I believe they also added Shaun Livingston to their bench, who should be a very nice third guard for them.


I really think if GSW came into the playoffs, they would be the best team - well maybe the Spurs would be better, but I think they would probably beat everyone else. I thought the Clippers were very fortunate to face GSW without Bogut.

They have a legit #1 option, star complimentary players, a good third guard, and the other starters are all above average at their positions. I think they are certainly a championship team.

Seriously? This was a team that was basically healthy last regular season, got a 6th seed, and will have 3 of their 4 best players in their 30s next year. When have you ever seen a core like that go unchanged and morph into a champion?

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE where the Warriors are, but no I don't consider them serious contenders as they currently stand. Good enough to get an upset and get to the 2nd round again? Sure. Not enough to get through the West though unless something dramatic happens.

Though one thing I will say: It's within the realm of possibility that a smart offensive scheme could let the team make a major leap forward based on Curry truly being unleashed in some kind of next-generation-Nash manner that he hasn't proven capable of yet I'm not saying that's impossible, but it would take something like that. The team isn't winning a title based on subtle refinements here and there.

I don't know how good Kerr would be but for a squad with that much offensive talent to be that mediocre is straight up wasteful.

Under the right coaching that was a top 5 offense and Marc Jackson majorly underperformed.

McHale and Jackson aren't that far from each other in my opinion and yet McHale was getting a lot more flack


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[Doctor MJ]

Seriously? This was a team that was basically healthy last regular season, got a 6th seed, and will have 3 of their 4 best players in their 30s next year. When have you ever seen a core like that go unchanged and morph into a champion?

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Igudolla and Bogut do not need to make improvements, and they likely won't decline much. It's still reasonable that Curry can improve and Klay Thompson is very young. Age is hardly an issue for them.

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE where the Warriors are, but no I don't consider them serious contenders as they currently stand. Good enough to get an upset and get to the 2nd round again? Sure. Not enough to get through the West though unless something dramatic happens.

I don't see why not, if they could beat the Clippers why couldn't they win the West?

As for the upset thing, I thought they were clearly a better team than the Nuggets coming into the playoffs. Seeding isn't everything.



What teams in your opinion are contenders?

I'm really really confused by your post. I reads like you don't know '13-14 already happened. Iguodala played on the Warriors last year, for example. Care to rephrase?

In terms of the top contenders right now in the West to me its still Spurs, Thunder, Clippers before the Warriors, with the Rockets being a team that could move into that next tier if they truly click.

As I say this I do realize the Clippers basely beat the Warriors last year despite the Warriors not being healthy. I have respect for the Warriors as a threat, but seeing them beat all those teams round after round does not seem feasible to me without some kind of major leap.

[PaulieWal]

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Wait, what?

Anyway, I agree with Doc I don't see them as a serious contender. The only contenders right now are Spurs/OKC/Clips and the contenders to win the East (but not win it all) are Chicago and Cleveland.

[HeartBreakKid]

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Wait, what?

Andre Iguodolla was on the Nuggets that year, what's the confusion? This was his first year playing for Golden State.

Anyway, I agree with Doc I don't see them as a serious contender. The only contenders right now are Spurs/OKC/Clips and the contenders to win the East (but not win it all) are Chicago and Cleveland.

Talent wise, why is OKC and LAC any better? Do you think LAC would have beaten GSW if Bogut was there?

[Doctor MJ]

I don't know how good Kerr would be but for a squad with that much offensive talent to be that mediocre is straight up wasteful.

Under the right coaching that was a top 5 offense and Marc Jackson majorly underperformed.

McHale and Jackson aren't that far from each other in my opinion and yet McHale was getting a lot more flack


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How talented are they on offense really though?

I mean we're basically just talking about Curry, Lee and Thompson there right? And Thompson despite the hype has only middling efficiency despite Curry taking all the pressure off and spoon feeding him, while Lee's impact proving to be relatively redundant with the primacy of an emerging Curry is probably still the seminal moment for this generation in Oakland.

I agree with you that Jackson's offense was uncreative, so like I said I won't say it's impossible that we could see something that made us realize Curry's a savant, but in the end then that's just about Curry not about the supporting cast. The supporting cast as is is nice and well rounded, but if it wasn't enough to give them an elite record last year, I don't see any reason to assume it will be in the future.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm really really confused by your post. I reads like you don't know '13-14 already happened. Iguodala played on the Warriors last year, for example. Care to rephrase?

I assumed you were talking about 2013 because you said "Golden State was healthy". Golden State wasn't healthy this RS.

In terms of the top contenders right now in the West to me its still Spurs, Thunder, Clippers before the Warriors, with the Rockets being a team that could move into that next tier if they truly click.

As I say this I do realize the Clippers basely beat the Warriors last year despite the Warriors not being healthy. I have respect for the Warriors as a threat, but seeing them beat all those teams round after round does not seem feasible to me without some kind of major leap.

Fair enough, but I don't see the odds of OKC ever winning a championship either. I mean OKC needed Zach Randolph to get suspended for them to win, and they have a much more flawed offensive roster (I also think Mark Jackson held back GSW a lot, was especially noticeable when he was going up against Doc Rivers).

I think LAC, Spurs and OKC are the safe answers, but I really don't see OKC ever winning a championship as they are now. If GSW can beat one of those teams in the first round, then I don't see why it isn't reasonable that they couldn't beat any team any other round.

[Doctor MJ]

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Wait, what?

Andre Iguodolla was on the Nuggets that year, what's the confusion? This was his first year playing for Golden State.

HeartBreak, last year was '13-14. That's what people will assume you mean when you refer to "last year", and that's also the season we're all looking at to consider what will happen in '14-15.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wait, what?

Andre Iguodolla was on the Nuggets that year, what's the confusion? This was his first year playing for Golden State.

HeartBreak, last year was '13-14. That's what people will assume you mean when you refer to "last year", and that's also the season we're all looking at to consider what will happen in '14-15.

"I assumed you were talking about 2013 because you said "Golden State was healthy". Golden State wasn't healthy this RS."


They got sixth seed twice in a row, so I wasn't sure what year you were talking about.

[PaulieWal]

Andre Iguodolla wasn't on the team last year, and he is not a minor upgrade.

Wait, what?

Andre Iguodolla was on the Nuggets that year, what's the confusion? This was his first year playing for Golden State.

Anyway, I agree with Doc I don't see them as a serious contender. The only contenders right now are Spurs/OKC/Clips and the contenders to win the East (but not win it all) are Chicago and Cleveland.

Talent wise, why is OKC and LAC any better? Do you think LAC would have beaten GSW if Bogut was there?

Okay....but the way it sounded like you were saying that he didn't play for GSW last year and he did. This will be his second year/season playing for the Warriors.

I don't think there's any question that talent wise OKC is definitely better than GSW and Clips are slightly better. Bogut's health is a fair point but CP was also dinged up and there was talk of him missing one of the games. Secondly, another what if question you can ask is what happens if the Sterling tapes never get leaked? After the series was over we heard how mentally taxed/distracted the Clippers were for game 6 and they knew it was going to be a loss.

If all are healthy and Clips don't have the Sterling distraction I think Clips win in 6. The same Clips team was also 3 uncharacteristically stupid CP mistakes away from being up 3-2 on OKC.

[Greatness]

Signs you know it's the offseason: the LeBron thread turns into a debate on whether or not Andre Iguodala was on the Warriors roster last year.

[HeartBreakKid]

Okay....but the way it sounded like you were saying that he didn't play for GSW last year and he did. This will be his second year/season playing for the Warriors.

I misinterpreted what Doc MJ said.

I don't think there's any question that talent wise OKC is definitely better than GSW and Clips are slightly better.

I don't know. Outside of Durant and Westbrook their team is pretty daft. Very poorly constructed, no offensive rhythm at all. Just straight up iso ball. For a team that basically got nothing but a bunch of defensive roleplayers, a lot of them aren't that great defensive players, Seflosa was pretty terrible though I think they got rid of him.

I think Curry is a better player than Westbrook. Is Durant better than everyone else on the Warriors combine is the question I ask. I really think OKC is a two man team, and if just anything goes wrong with them it's the straw the broke the camels back, and they just get trounced.

Bogut's health is a fair point but CP was also dinged up and there was talk of him missing one of the games.

Indeed.

Secondly, another what if question you can ask is what happens if the Sterling tapes never get leaked? After the series was over we heard how mentally taxed the Clippers were for game 6 and they knew it was going to be a loss.

I honestly don't think it made a difference, and I think it affected GSW as well. The sterling thing is a poor excuse to lose games.

If all are healthy and Clips don't have the Sterling distraction I think Clips win in 6. The same Clips team was also 3 uncharacteristically stupid CP mistakes away from being up 3-2 on OKC.

Absolutely, but this kinda goes on to my greater point.

There is a lot of parity between these teams. I thought the Clippers actually underachieved by losing to OKC. I think they can all reasonably beat each other, but what separates me from most is that I think GSW really deserves to be in that convo. I absolutely can see them beating OKC and LAC in a playoff series. I mean really, no team in the West is close to unbeatable, and GSW is pretty damn well constructed from head to toe.

They have a top 5 player in every position but powerforward where they are fielding David Lee, they have a nice 6th man with Shaun Livingstone, they have one of the best players in the league in my opinion with Stephen Curry. They have size, defense, shooting, that "explosiveness" that comes from being a 3 point threat, some athleticism.

Their biggest problem to me is health, and their second biggest problem is coaching.

[Doctor MJ]

I assumed you were talking about 2013 because you said "Golden State was healthy". Golden State wasn't healthy this RS.

Their starters played 358 games. Of the top teams in the West, only the Clippers' starters played more at 361, and of course the Clippers unluckily were missing a far more important piece (Paul). I'd say that's actually incredibly lucky for the Warriors given that they have 3 older guys and a star with a tissue paper ankle.

Fair enough, but I don't see the odds of OKC ever winning a championship either. I mean OKC needed Zach Randolph to get suspended for them to win, and they have a much more flawed offensive roster (I also think Mark Jackson held back GSW a lot, was especially noticeable when he was going up against Doc Rivers).

I think LAC, Spurs and OKC are the safe answers, but I really don't see OKC ever winning a championship as they are now. If GSW can beat one of those teams in the first round, then I don't see why it isn't reasonable that they couldn't beat any team any other round.

The Thunder gave a rounded-into-form Spurs a serious challenge despite being coached by a 3 year old. I'd say I agree with you that the Thunder may never win a title especially if they don't get serious about modern strategy, but they are clearly a serious contender in the eyes of everyone in the league.

Re: Can win 1st round, why not rest? Okay, fair point. So it's clear, the reason I say this is that GS has shown no signs of being able to be elite throughout the regular season. A 6 seed can be dangerous, but if they were truly an elite contender built to take on all comers in almost all cases, they'd have been able to do more in the regular season.

[Doctor MJ]

Signs you know it's the offseason: the LeBron thread turns into a debate on whether or not Andre Iguodala was on the Warriors roster last year.

This literally had holding on to my chair trying to keep from falling to the floor.