RealGM Top 100 List #8

[penbeast0]

Rules: Vote for 1 player. You may change your vote as consensus emerges but if so, go back and EDIT YOUR ORIGINAL POST. Votes without analysis will not be counted. If, after 2 days, there is not a majority consensus, the top; 2 nominees will have a 1 day runoff election to determine the spot on our list. NBA/ABA only, no college, international play, ABL, NBL, BAA or other pre-NBA play considered.

Magic v. Hakeem is my first take on this but also willing to listen to the arguments for some of the other greats:
Bird, Garnett, Kobe, Erving, Mikan, Oscar, KMalone?

[HeartBreakKid]

Hardly have any time to read these threads as I've been having a lot of school lately, but I'll quickly give my in-put based on what I've read here.



I think Hakeem is the best player here. I think a lot of the stats posted here have probably shown that Olajuwon is pretty underrated during the earlier portions of his career. The argument that "it is revisionist history to say this guy was good, when people thought he wasn't back then" is a very poor argument, especially when you are considering an age where information and press were severely limited to now.

I emphasis heavily on prime and peak, more so quality than quantity, so longevity doesn't matter much to me (but Olajuwon is very good here too).


With Shaq getting put in, it kinda leads me to why people would not want Olajuwon in there. I think Hakeem and Shaquille are reasonably equal players, I voted for Shaq over Hakeem, but Hakeem is certainly not far behind.


I think Hakeem was a better player than Bird and Magic. Bird and Magic lead some incredible offenses, but their teams were stacked, while as Hakeem never had a super talented team. He won with an ensemble group of roleplayers, then repeated with an upgraded group with Drexler being the most note worthy of the new talent.


Hakeem was able to carry and raise his game to the playoffs, people say that those two years salvaged Hakeem's careers - probably, but...they were amazing years all the same.


Bird and Magic are phenomenal offensive players, far better than Hakeem. But Hakeem is about as good as you can get when it comes to post scoring bar Shaq and Kareem (who I actually think Hakeem is pretty close too). I'd also much rather take Hakeem's offense rather than Wilt Chamberlain's loosy-goosy and sometimes cancerous style.

But really, the big thing here is defense. As someone who put Bill Russell as their #1, it's hard for me to objectively look the other way from Hakeem's impact. Hakeem's defense is astronomical. Statistically, I don't think I can prove it's as high as Bird or Magic's offenses, but I think their stats are often skewed by how good their teams were. But Hakeem is certainly a top 5 defender of all time, and he is a true #1 option and a serious match up nightmare on the other end.

Hakeem is the best two way big, it's hard for me to take even a Lebron James over him (who I think is a better player than both Bird and Magic). Hakeem will net you 4-5 blocks, 12-14 rebounds, a good 23-25 points, do all the little things, all while being a phenomenal and loyal teammate.


My vote goes to Hakeem Olajuwon

My vote goes to Hakeem Olajuwon, as this will likely be between him and Bird and Magic (my next two highest ranking guys), my previous vote should be enough to explain how I feel.

[Purch]

Karl Malone needs more traction here

Spoiler:

His averages for 16 years between 1986-2003

22/10/2
28/12/2
29/11/3
31/11/3
29/12/3
28/11/3
27/11/4
25/12/4
27/11/4
26/10/4
27/10/4
27/10/5
24/9/4
26/10/4
23/8/5
22/9/4
21/8/5


In the 11 straight bolded seasons from 1989-1999 he was all nba 1st team.

If you want to talk about player durability look no further than Karl Malone.

In 17 out of his 19 seasons he played 80 or more games
For comparison Kevin Garnett has only played 80 games 8 out of the 19 years of his career
Not only that but Malone accomplished this whiles playing 2,624 more playoff minutes than Garnett in his career

He's the oldest player in Nba history to win Mvp at age 35.


His longevity in the playoffs is just as impressive

22/8/1
20/10/1
30/12/2
31/16/1
25/10/2
30/13/3
29/11/3
24/10/2
27/12/3
30/13/4
27/10/4
26/11/3
26/10/3
22/11/5
27/9/3
28/9/3
20/8/5
20/7/4

That's an 18 year span in the post season

So if you guys are criticizing Magic and Bird for their durability and longevity, that same focus should be propelling Malone up in these rankings.


Also for you guys who put great value in the "player efficency stat" or "PER"rating, Malone's consistency in that statistic speaks for itself.

For 13 seasons from 1988-2001 Karl Malone was top 5 in "PER" in a league that included extremely efficient players like ; David Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, Ewing, Hakeem and Jordan all in their prime

1988-1989 - #5 In PER (24.4)
1989-1990- #2 In PER (27.2)
1990-1991- #5 In Per (24.8)
1991-1992- #3 in PER (25.4)
1992-1993- #3 in PER (26.2)
1993-1994- #5 in PER (22.9)
1994-1995- #5 In Per (25.1)
1995-1996- #4 in PER (26.0)
1996-1997- #1 in Per (28.9)
1997-1998- #2 in Per (27.9)
1998-1999- #2 in Per (25.6)
1999-2000- #2 in PER (27.1)
2000-2001- #4 In Per (24.7)

That shows ridiculous efficiency over such a long period of time. That very few can match

Also for you guys who seem to value win shares as a legitimate stat.. Malone was consistently elite in that as well


1988-1989 - #5 in Win Shares (15.2)
1989-1990- #4 in Win Shares (15.9)
1990-1991- #3 in Win Shares (15.5)
1991-1992- #2 in Win Shares (15.1)
1992-1993- #3 in Win Shares (15.4)
1993-1994- #4 In Win Shares (13.4)
1994-1995- #4 in Win Shares (13.8)
1995-1996- #3 in Win Shares (15.1)
1996-1997- #2 in Win Shares (16.7)
1997-1998- #1 in Win Shares (16.4)
1998-1999- #1 in Win Shares (9.6)
1999-2000- #2 in Win Shares (15.3)
2000-2001- #5 in Win Shares (13.1)

That again is 13 straight years of being top 5 in the league in Win Shares.

In Offensive win Shares he's 6th all time trailing only Jordan, Oscar, Kareem, Wilt and Stockton.

In Defensive win shares he's a 6th all time (Ahead of Garnett) only trailing Russell, Duncan,Kareem , Hakeem and Wilt

For his career he only trails Wilt Chamberlin and Kareem in total win shares, he's 3rd all time.

So for a 13 year span from age 24-37 Malone was top 5 in PER and WIN Shares every single year, whiles being top 5 in the league in Points per game every single one of those years

[Texas Chuck]

I know KG is going to come up again at this spot and I imagine will start to gain a little traction. I'd like to hear from the KG supporters what (other than the obvious longevity) makes them rank him so much higher than David Robinson.

[acrossthecourt]

I think this is between Bird and Magic for me, who used to be close to both being top five....

I'm not averse to putting Bird over Magic. Bird was better right away, his MVP shares are better, and with his underrated defense he can close the gap on Magic. But I think what holds him back are some injuries at the wrong time.

Then there's Olajuwon and Garnett, and a couple others, with intriguing cases too.

[Purch]

Charles Barkley

Spoiler:

The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.

Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120

Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)

1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3


The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.



Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)

For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.

The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.

For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.

1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661

For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.


And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

[DQuinn1575]

Larry bird joined a 29 win team. They improved by 32 games. The next year they won the championship. His biggest rival joined the league the same time. Bird was clearly the better player for the 1st 5 years as he joined the league basically in his prime. The next 4 years magic improved and became a near equal.
The last 3 years bird was injured and was not as effective. Magic stayed at the same level, never exceeding bird's peak.

Bird and magic played about the same number of games. Magic joined a much better team, and one that added more good young players.

Bird was better than magic most of his career. Magic was never really better, bird got hurt.

VOTE FOR BIRD at Number 8


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Doctor MJ]

Charles Barkley

snip

I really like seeing stuff like this. It will probably be a good while yet before Chuck is my choice, but I love seeing posts that just show the good in some of these guys, and I also like anything that breaks down presumptions about tier differences.

As you said, Barkley won MVPs over prime Jordan & Magic. There are good reasons for picking those guys over him here obviously, but it's easy to get too comfortable viewing guys through entirely different lens.

[E-Balla]

I'm voting Magic Johnson. I feel he had the most consistent level of greatness compared to the field and his peak level was still top 10 all time.

[Baller2014]

Vote- Larry Bird

As I said last time around, I think I overrated Magic's longevity a little, and that brings Bird ahead of him too. Bird has an insane peak, where he was consistently the MVP in the golden era of basketball (3 times running), and there was nothing controversial at all about those awards. Even as a rookie, Bird's impact was enough to turn a 29 win lotto team around into a 61 win contender, one of the toughest things you can do, and of course Bird only got better after his rookie year. Bird has an amazing 8 year prime, and a few years after that which are still pretty awesome, though he's not prime Bird anymore. Just too much for the next choices of Magic, Hakeem, KG and Dr J. Magic doesn't really have a 12 year prime, he was injured most of his 2nd year, and didn't play at the same level all the way through, whereas Bird was almost immediately Bird. I've covered my problems with Hakeem in the Hakeem mega thread. He's coming up soon, but after Bird and Magic IMO. Anyway, just to remind people what a high IQ player Bird was I'm posting this:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU[/youtube]

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm glad that this is going to be a ranking where Bird and Magic are close on the list. This nonsense where Magic gets rated at second and Bird is at #9 needs to stop. I have no idea how the parity between the two has grown so gigantic over the years.

[BallerTed]

I think David Robinson also deserves some traction.

Robinson joined a Spurs 21 win Spurs team for the '89-'90 season and they improved by 25 wins from the previous one. One of the best 2-way bigs of all-time. 2nd All-Time in WS Per 48 behind only Michael Jordan and the 4th all-time leader in PER behind only Jordan, Lebron and Shaq.

In comparison to a player like Bird who is currently in the discussion for #8.

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%
D-Rob --- '90-'98 --- 34.0 ---- 15.8 ---- 4.1 ----- .525 ----- .590
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 30.9 ---- 12.7 ----- 7.6 ----- .519 ----- .570

As you can see D-Rob pretty much has the advantage all across the board and when you include the other side of the ball it's not really close.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%
D-Rob --- '90-'98 --- 31.0 ---- 16.1 ---- 3.8 ----- .481 ----- .549
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 28.4 ---- 12.4 ----- 7.4 ----- .489 ----- .555

Playoffs wise Bird has a slight edge in efficiency and an obvious edge as a playmaker. D-Rob however still enjoys a huge edge in defensive impact even with the playoff dip. More than enough to make up for any edge Bird has in playmaking and efficiency.

[penbeast0]

Charles Barkley
...

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

To be fair, I will probably vote Chuck over most of these guys . . . Miller and Vandeweghe are among the other weak defending scoring greats. I'd love to vote Moncrief over Barkley since I'd take Sid's prime over Chuck's (yes, I went there) but the health issues and playoff differentials are probably too great. So, Chuck rates above at least half the guys who were more efficient than he was.

...

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

Tougher category for Barkley. I'd take him over Neil Johnston, not sure about the others. Wade and Paul have moved up this list and Pettit is certainly better relative to era but there are questions about his era. Interesting to see Paul ahead of Barkley on two lists so far (the 4 player list I didn't really see a need for; maybe the point cutoff was too exclusive for me). He's a guy I will have to really evaluate this time around.

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Again, a tough group for Charles. Every other person on there is more valuable defensively and a better team leader than Barkley. This is probably the stat that I think is Barkley's strongest suit though.

Code: Select all

[b]Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %[/b]

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
[b][u]8. Charles Barkley .6120[/u][/b]


Well, I rate Barkely over everone ahead of him here except possibly Gilmore. I've become a bit less enamored of Gilmore since the last time we did this where I had him ahead of Barkley though so that's one I will be thinking about.

...
For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

Okay, and for this last comp, Moses owns Barkley but only Gilmore and Rodman are really in the Barkley range to even make a comparison, Way too early (by a good 20 slots) for Barkley to even be on the radar for me. Scorer/rebounder/clown . . . not close to top 10 all-time for me. Oh, and 15 year healthy careers are long ones; not short ones.

[Purch]

You picking and choosing names on every individual statistic I posted, has very little to do with the reason I posted it in the first place. If you look at each one individually, you can find a player who exceeds him, but there's a reason that their names aren't universal to all of these efficiency stats. If you weren't so quick to dismiss him, and rather actually looked at all the stats as a whole (rather than picking and choosing players from each list you feel are superior to him), you'd start to realize that there's less than a hanful of players as efficient as Barkley on that end of the floor. Its an obvious conclusion from watching him play and even more obvious once you realize there's a reason that Barkley's top 5 or top 10 in nearly every offensive efficency stat.

But I can tell by your post that you had no real intention of doing that. Because you already showed last thread that any post you feel that's not about a viable candidate in your head, simply takes away from the discussion right? You did the same thing when I posted about Malone.

[therealbig3]

I think Barkley is an offensive force, like a super version of Melo...the small ball 4 that dominates with his combination of quickness, explosion, and power.

However, I have to admit I'm not too high on Barkley, simply because he's a PF with bad defense. That's a pretty big deal for me, especially when we see the kind of defensive impact a PF CAN have (Duncan and KG). That's why I tend to lean towards classical two-way PFs (Duncan and KG), a PF who's primarily an offensive player but also plays great if not historically elite defense (Malone), and a PF that you could probably argue is on Barkley's level offensively but isn't the same defensive liability (Dirk).

[acrossthecourt]

I think David Robinson also deserves some traction.

Robinson joined a Spurs 21 win Spurs team for the '89-'90 season and they improved by 25 wins from the previous one. One of the best 2-way bigs of all-time. 2nd All-Time in WS Per 48 behind only Michael Jordan and the 4th all-time leader in PER behind only Jordan, Lebron and Shaq.

In comparison to a player like Bird who is currently in the discussion for #8.

Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%
D-Rob --- '90-'98 --- 34.0 ---- 15.8 ---- 4.1 ----- .525 ----- .590
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 30.9 ---- 12.7 ----- 7.6 ----- .519 ----- .570

As you can see D-Rob pretty much has the advantage all across the board and when you include the other side of the ball it's not really close.

Playoff Per 100
Player ---- Years ---- PPG ---- RPG ---- APG ---- eFG% ---- TS%
D-Rob --- '90-'98 --- 31.0 ---- 16.1 ---- 3.8 ----- .481 ----- .549
Bird ----- '80-'88 ---- 28.4 ---- 12.4 ----- 7.4 ----- .489 ----- .555

Playoffs wise Bird has a slight edge in efficiency and an obvious edge as a playmaker. D-Rob however still enjoys a huge edge in defensive impact even with the playoff dip. More than enough to make up for any edge Bird has in playmaking and efficiency.

This is why:
Versus >3 defenses (bad defenses) from 1990 to 2001 his offensive rating was 123.6.

Versus -3< defenses? (Good ones.) 109.2.

It's the same with his peak years too: 127.9 versus 113.9.

And then there are the epic playoff collapses....

Even so, a limited David Robinson is still very good, but he doesn't hold up to guys like Magic.

[Clyde Frazier]

Spoiler:

Charles Barkley



The only player to win an Mvp over Jordan in his absolute prime.

Also, if we’re making cases for Malone I should probally put a post about the power forward that I rank above both Malone and Garnett. One of the single most efficient and effective scorers in Nba history.

Career Leaders and Records for Offensive Rating

1. Chris Paul 122.44 (G)
2. Reggie Miller 121.48 (SG)
3. Magic Johnson* 120.79 (PG-Point F)
4. John Stockton* 120.55 (PG)
5. Kiki Vandeweghe 119.49 (SF-SG)
6. Sidney Moncrief 119.40 (CG-PG)
7. Charles Barkley* 119.31 (PF)

SHOT MADE/MISS DIFFERENTIAL STAT-
(minimum 15,000 shot attempts)

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: +3,367.5
2. Shaquille O'Neal: +3,200.5
3. Wilt Chamberlain: +1,865
4. Charles Barkley: +1,434

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.91
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.43
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.65
7. Bob Pettit* 25.35
8. Chris Paul 25.22
9. Tim Duncan 24.84
10. Neil Johnston* 24.63
11. Charles Barkley* 24.63

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating


1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.31
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.12
5. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk Nowitzki 24.75
8. Tracy McGrady 24.66
9. Dwyane Wade 24.56
10. Charles Barkley* 24.18

Nba all time career leaders in True Shooting %

1. Cedric Maxwell .6294
2. Artis Gilmore .6227
3. Dave Twardzik .6184
4. James Donaldson .6177
5. Adrian Dantley .6166
6. Tyson Chandler .6166
7. Reggie Miler .6139
8. Charles Barkley .6120

Most seasons with a 2 point percentage of 60% or more ( playing at least 60 games)

1 Artis Gilmore 1981 1986 6
2 Charles Barkley 1987 1991 5
3 Tyson Chandler 2007 2013 5
4 Wilt Chamberlain 1967 1973 3


The common theme you see in a lot of these efficiency stats, is that role players who have a lot of baskets created for them are near the top. However, with Barkley you have a player near the top in all these effiency stats, who at the same time was one of the single most double teamed players in nba history.



Charles Barkley playoff games
Charles Barkley – 1 (50 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 5 (40 point playoff game)
Charles Barkley- 28 (30 point playoff games)

For comparison Kevin Garnett has only scored 30 points in 9 playoff games.

The more I watch of Barkley and Garnett, the more I'm convinced that the gap between them offensively, is just as substantial as the gap between them defensively. With Barkley you literally have a 6'4 power foward, scoring the ball with Shaq level efficiency during his prime.

For four straight years during his prime he led the league in True shooting percentage.

1986-1987- .660
1987-1988- .665
1988-1989- .653
1989-1990- .661

For comparison sake, Kevin Garnett does not have a single season of 60 TS% or better. Whiles Barkley is ranked #9 in career TS% and has a career TS% of .6120, Kevin Garnett is ranked #193 all time with a TS% of only .5472 for his career.


And he was doing this whiles being one of the most double teamed players in nba history.There's literally less than a handful of players in nba history who have been able to score as much at as high an efficiency against both playoff and regular season defenses as Charles Barkley. The only guys who have, have already been voted in as top 5 players in this project.

Also I forgot to add on, just how good Charles Barkley was on the offensive glass. For three straight seasons he led the league in offensive rebounds

1986-1987- 390 offensive rebounds
1987-1988- 385 offensive rebounds
1988-1989- 403 offensive rebounds

For his career he's ranked 6th all time in offensive rebounds

1. Moses Malone -7382
2. Artis Gilmore - 4816
3. Robert Parish -4598
4. Buck Williams- 4526
5. Dennis Rodman-4329
6. Charles Barkley- 4260

This is even more impressive considering he only played a 15 year career, and a lot of those weren't even in his prime.

While i'm not ready to argue for Barkley yet, he will always stick out to me as one of the most dynamic and uniquely talented players in NBA history. From 86-92, he put up ~25 PPG on an absurd TS% of 64%, leading the league in TS% 4 straight seasons during that span.

For years, I had the top 3 PFs of all time pretty set in stone to me: Duncan / Malone / Barkley -- I don't necessarily have those same thoughts coming into this (a lot has happened in the last 2 years or so)

Since there seems to be a much larger push for garnett / dirk in the 2/3 spots, I just hope there will be enough appreciation for malone / barkley as opposed to highlighting their flaws in support of garnett / dirk.

Also looking forward to the pettit discussion, as he has a good case for top 5 PF all time, but his era makes it tricky.

[colts18]

This is why:
Versus >3 defenses (bad defenses) from 1990 to 2001 his offensive rating was 123.6.

Versus -3< defenses? (Good ones.) 109.2.

It's the same with his peak years too: 127.9 versus 113.9.

And then there are the epic playoff collapses....

Even so, a limited David Robinson is still very good, but he doesn't hold up to guys like Magic.

How do those numbers compare to KG?

[Rupert Murdoch]

Just a minute. Magic made it down all the way to #8? You've got to be kidding me. Who the hell's been voting on this list?

[HeartBreakKid]

Just a minute. Magic made it down all the way to #8? You've got to be kidding me. Who the hell's been voting on this list?

*looks at the list of guys who made it already



Not exactly like Smush Parker was voted over him. God forbid anyone thinks Lebron James and Wilt Chamberlain are better players than Magic Johnson