Start a franchise: Oscar & Wilt or West & Russell

[Purch]

From 1960-1970, Pre 3 point line which duo would you take?

[Winsome Gerbil]

Oscar and Wilt pretty easily.

Maybe the two most dominant statistical players in league history, teamed up through their primes. It of course wouldn't work quite like this, but there would be years where combined they were averaging 75pts 35rebs and 15ast between the two of them.

[dautjazz]

For me it's got to be Oscar and Wilt. I'm a firm believer that Wilt is better than Russell. To me Wilt is top for me with Kareem, probably a slight edge to Kareem. I also give the edge to Oscar over West, he was just better in every aspect of the game as far as I know except maybe defense.

[Quotatious]

In the 60s, I'd take Russell and West - Bill's defensive impact was unparalleled, and West was far better than anyone he played with. Chemistry (both in terms of personality and game) would be oustanding, and I would have the best defensive, and arguably at times the best offensive player in the game, together.

Wilt and Oscar would be insane as well, both were very unselfish, so it should work (but I'm not as convinced about it, as I am about Russell and West getting along extremely well, considering that Wilt had some problems with other stars on his teams, at times - his relationship with guys like Hal Greer and Elgin Baylor was a little difficult), and obviously neither Chamberlain or Robertson played with another player of this caliber, at least not until the early 70s, when Oscar had Kareem and Wilt had West).

It's extremely close, but I just like the more clearly defined roles with Russell and West.

If I could pick one of these duos to play in the league TODAY though, I'd definitely take Wilt and Oscar, simply because I think that Chamberlain would be a clearly more impactful player in today's game, with his much more potent offensive skills, and the fact (well, at least I guess we can agree that it's a fact) that today's era would lessen Russell's defensive impact a bit.

Oscar might be a marginally safer bet than West as far as how they would translate (but I'm not nearly as sure, nor concerned, with it, as I am about Russell and Chamberlain).

[Darren_Errman]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

[Basketballefan]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

So by the logic that's bolded, does this mean you'd take Havlicek over Lebron? Since you want to ring count in a foolish manner.

[Basketballefan]

Oscar and Wilt EASILY. Wilt>Russell, Oscar>West. Seems easy to me.

[Darren_Errman]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

So by the logic that's bolded, does this mean you'd take Havlicek over Lebron? Since you want to ring count in a foolish manner.

Russell was the defensive anchor of all those title teams. Stop hyperboling.

[Johnlac1]

For me it's got to be Oscar and Wilt. I'm a firm believer that Wilt is better than Russell. To me Wilt is top for me with Kareem, probably a slight edge to Kareem. I also give the edge to Oscar over West, he was just better in every aspect of the game as far as I know except maybe defense.

I like that analysis. I'm a huge Wilt fan, and I still rate him a little higher than KAJ. I do that because while Wilt lost his scoring skills as his career progressed, he remained a strong def. player and rebounder who could still score opportunity pts. I'll admit it's very close, and I can understand the arguments for KAJ as being better. But if Wilt had played with LA at the start of the sixties, we'd be talking about the sixties as being the decade of the Lakers.

Robertson and West are also close, but again I rate Oscar as being slightly better. If Oscar had a better center in Cincy, they would have beaten the Celts a few times in the playoffs. When he went to the Bucks the experts predicted a title for MIlwaukee. That's exactly what he provided. The KAJ-Robertson connection might have won a few more titles if Oscar hadn't been plagued by injuries his last three years.

[Ballerhogger]

Russell and West, GOAT D and great fast break.

[Samurai]

I would take Russell/West. I would be more confident if it was in today's game with a 3-point line, but even without it I'd still go that route.

When I hear the term "start a franchise/team", I am making the assumption that I do not know who will make up the rest of my roster and I may not have control over who I draft/get stuck with. With that assumption, West's versatility would be the key determining factor. Oscar was a true point guard; catch and shoot wasn't his game and he did not have an outside shot. So if I end up getting say, a Jason Kidd as my other guard, that leaves Oscar as my stretch shooting guard. He thus becomes less effective since I won't be able to have him best utilize his strengths. If my second guard ends up being Cousy (prefer not) or Slick Watts (really hope not), well I'm certainly not having Cousy or Watts as my shooting guard, so again I have to play Oscar out of his optimum position. With West, I don't have that issue. If my second guard ends up being Kidd, I can easily rely on West to be my stretch shooting guard. If I end up with Cousy or Watts, at least they can play their primary PG position. If my second guard ends up being a Gervin, Drexler, Ray Allen, etc., then I can just slide West over to PG and know that he will do just fine and likely end up among the league leaders in assists.

Chamberlain gives me the versatility edge at center, but even if I don't get a Dirk or Mailman at PF, I think having a defensive anchor like Russell still keeps me competitive. Chamberlain was also an elite defender, but I have Russell at a different level. And most importantly, Russell was my first "favorite player" when I first started to follow basketball so of course I will be happy taking him!

[D Nice]

Heh, interesting, this is probably the only version of this comparison where I would take Wilt/Oscar. If you told me versus their 60/70s competition but with a 3-point line I'd pick West/Russell, if you ported them to the modern game but removed the 3 point shot I'd pick West/Russell, and (probably needless to say) if you ported them to the modern game with no rule changes I'd pick West/Russell.

But under the OPs constraints I take Wilt/Oscar. Their intra-era dominance can't be disputed and head to head, in that era, I'd probably slightly favor Oscar/Wilt to West/Russell, even if only slightly.

[ardee]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

Oscar would be unguardable in today's game, you don't know what you're talking about. He was a complete offensive player, could shoot, post-up, ridiculous first step.

[john248]

In their era, I'm picking West/Russell. In today's league, I'd take Wilt/Oscar since both are scoring threats who don't overlap each other, and a good defense can be built around Wilt.

[Darren_Errman]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

Oscar would be unguardable in today's game, you don't know what you're talking about. He was a complete offensive player, could shoot, post-up, ridiculous first step.

Great midrange shooter yes, but Oscar was an ancient one handed high bounce dribbler and rarely went left. Defenders and defenses were terrible back then. His shooting would translate to today's game. I'm not so sure he would be any good taking defenders off the dribble or driving the lane today. Not with that funky ball handling. West had more modern handles, shot almost or equally as well, was way more athletic, and played MUCH BETTER man and help defense. Both were great scorers, perhaps small edge to Oscar, but on defense it was no contest. West was on a different level. People forget how good West was as a defender. He was among the absolute 2, 3 best perimeter defenders in the league.

[Johnlac1]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

You'll be happy to know that virtually nobody who was around to watch both players when they were still performing would agree with you. Robertson was easily the better floor general, ballhandler, passer, and rebounder. He also had a wider variety of moves and could score inside better than West. West was the faster, quicker athlete, got his shot off faster, had a little more range, and was a better ball stealer. It's close, but Robertson still comes out slightly ahead.

And as far as the nutrition argument, do you think athletes from those days ate chocolate cream pies and snicker bars for their main meals? Chamberlain ate a variety of foods, but whatever he ate, he'd still physically overwhelm virtually all the centers of today.

[Darren_Errman]

Nutritional knowledge has changed dramatically. Wasn't long ago that people were teaching and learning that fat made you fat and carbohydrates would not convert to fat. Now everyone knows carbohydrates can make u fat and certain fats are actually beneficial for fat loss. One of many examples.

It's silly to to think modern knowledge of nutritions, supplements, and training don't matter. They're huge. Everybody and their mama at the draft combine these days walk around looking like amateur bodybuilders and pull 40 inch vertical.

[D Nice]

West and Russell.

Oscar is extremely overrated. West's skillset was more advanced than Oscar on both sides of the ball. West's game resembles the modern game. Oscar's game looks ancient. All you have to is look at video clips of them dribbling the ball and how they pressure the ball handler. West could play in today's league, assuming he's given the same diet, training, and technology.

Russell is a better defender than Wilt. Russell just wins. I take the winner.

Oscar would be unguardable in today's game, you don't know what you're talking about. He was a complete offensive player, could shoot, post-up, ridiculous first step.

Oscar's first step is as average as they come bro...

[Samurai]

I am probably one of the few here that saw all 4 play. In comparing Oscar and West:

I agree Oscar was the better ball handler, passer and rebounder. West had the greater shooting range and thus was a much better outside shooter. Oscar had a size advantage over other guards of his era - as such, he was tremendous at posting up and was a better low post shooter than West. Both could drive to the basket, both were great at drawing fouls, but West had the quicker first step and was a better slasher.

West was clearly the better defensive player. Robertson was a good defender while West was a GOAT level defender.

If you are looking at who was the better player in the 60's I would go with Oscar. I think the stats would support that but I will leave that to the more stat-fluent posters to verify.

If you are looking at whose game would translate better to todays NBA, I would go with West. Oscars game was based on posting up smaller guards and I don't know how effective he would be against guards as big or bigger than he was. Wests bread and butter was a pull-up jumper with a very quick first stèp, which I think would still be effective today. And with a 3 point line his superior range would make him more if a threat than Oscar

If you are starting a franchise I'd go with West for the reasons in my previous post. If I knew I was getting a shooting guard with long range ability, I would definitely take Oscar. But if I am starting a franchise and don't know who my other guard will be, I would take West since he could play either PG or SG extremely well.

[trex_8063]

Starting at '70, I'd probably go with Oscar and Wilt. If we were starting from '60, I'd probably take the other duo (Russell's defensive impact being so massive in that era). But as I've implied in other threads I think a lot of Russell's defensive dominance stems from his phenomenal RELATIVE athleticism in that era. By the 70's, though, integration is in full swing, and we start seeing a higher class of athletic talent particularly at the perimeter positions (Dr. J, George Gervin, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, World B. Free, point-forwards like Connie Hawkins, etc). As result, I think his defensive stock will suffer somewhat. That tips things toward Wilt/Oscar for me.