The '96 Bulls with '09 Wade in place of Jordan

[D.Brasco]

How far do you see that team going and/or what are some noticeable differences there from how they actually were?

[Sign5]

Championship, same result.

[Quotatious]

Talent-wise, I think '96 Jordan and '09 Wade are pretty much even, but I feel like there's something intangible, something that goes beyond numbers, and something that's very difficult to put a finger on, about the way Jordan was able to lead that team, leadership or primacy are the words that I'd use to describe it. Pippen and Jordan were just such a great tandem chemistry-wise, and I don't think that simply replacing MJ with DW would allow this team to be just as good as they were with Jordan, despite the fact that you're basically replacing MJ with a player just as good as him.

I'd say they still win 65 in the RS and win the title though. Jordan didn't really play well (by his standards) in the finals against Seattle, and they still won in 6, so I think that Wade wouldn't have been worse than Mike was. I could see it going 7 games, but the Bulls would come out on top.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Hard to really be definitive since this is a hypothetical situation but I think I would bet on the Bulls still winning in 96 with Wade replacing Jordan.

To me Wade at his Peak was the closest thing I have ever seen to early 90's Jordan and thus logically would seem like the guy most likely able to replicate his results.

[Melodabeast]

67-68 wins and a Championship. Easily.

Well that's assuming Wade stays healthy for the entire reg season and through the post-season. That's certainly not a given.

[Swagalicious]

tough question...im not sure, do they win against seattle in 4, 5, 6 or 7?

[tsherkin]

This one's interesting to me, since Wade never got anywhere near the level of offense which Jordan showcased in 96, nor has he ever been a considerably superior defender, either.

Obviously, a 72-win replacing Jordan is going to get worse, but 09 Wade was at the peak of his game and was quite amazing.

Let's throw some context into this discussion.

1) Wade would probably have to shoulder a similar load.

Scottie had a pretty good regular season, but often lamed out in the playoffs. In 96, he was a 19.4 ppg player on 15.8 FGA/g at 55.1% TS (+0.9% over league average) and 116 ORTG, very valuable in the RS.

Come the PS, he was at 16.9 ppg on 15.9 FGA/g, 47.3% TS and 111 ORTG. Obviously, considerably worse as a scoring threat. Specifically in the Finals, he was at 15.7 ppg on 16.5 FGA/g, 42.9% TS and 106 ORTG, so considerably worse than his regular season performance and even worse than his average playoff performance. Jordan wasn't setting efficiency records either at 53.8% TS, but he was still producing at a 116 ORTG, which is better than any single regular season performance from Wade, FWIW, and he did that while rocking 31.0% USG.

En route to 72 wins, Jordan posted a league-best 30.4 ppg on 22.6 FGA/g, 58.4% TS and 124 ORTG while leading the league with 33.4% USG.

Wade's career-high ORTG is 115, FWIW, though the difference there is heavily swayed by Wade's much, much higher TOV%.

09 Wade also led the league in scoring, posting 30.2 ppg on 22.0 FGA/g, 57.4% TS and 113 ORTG.

So really, when you're talking about an All-Defensive guard who led the league in scoring on strong efficiency, there are definitely worse choices to replace MJ. Wade's mid-range jumper was quite good that year, so that's not a major point of contention, and his typically miserable 3P% would have been bolstered by the closer line, so that'd have been less a concern, though I'm inclined to doubt that he'd match Jordan's 42.7% on 3.2 3PA/g even still. Likewise Jordan's 83.4% FT is something Wade would never replicate, since he's shot 80% from the line only once in his career (80.7% in 07). Definitely different classes of shooter in this comparison.

Obviously, Wade was very good. I don't think Wade would lead the Bulls to an offense as good, given the gap between him and MJ. Chicago was 1st in the league at 115.2 ORTG and Wade was something like 11 points worse in individual ORTG while commanding a comparable proportion of his team's possessions while on the floor, and that sort of thing is going to impact the team. Next-best was Utah's 113.3, though, so the Bulls could afford to fall almost 2 full points and STILL be the best team in the league, though that starts to seriously crimp in on SRS and overall record.

I imagine that Chicago would win 60+ games with Wade and then lose in 6 or 7 to Seattle, because I think Payton would have a more profound effect on Wade with the defense which was permitted in that era.

[DQuinn1575]

They wouldn't win the title because the only way to control rodman was to have Jordan in the team.

Without Jordan rodman becomes a wild card. They also do not have the incredible focus the bulls had that year.

Jordan had so much to prove, and played every single game at an intensity level never equaled. They never dialed it in -

They win about 58 games and lose in playoffs.


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[Joao Saraiva]

They wouldn't win the title because the only way to control rodman was to have Jordan in the team.

Without Jordan rodman becomes a wild card. They also do not have the incredible focus the bulls had that year.

Jordan had so much to prove, and played every single game at an intensity level never equaled. They never dialed it in -

They win about 58 games and lose in playoffs.


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I believe Rodman producing good basketball has more to do with PJ than Michael Jordan.

[DQuinn1575]

They wouldn't win the title because the only way to control rodman was to have Jordan in the team.

Without Jordan rodman becomes a wild card. They also do not have the incredible focus the bulls had that year.

Jordan had so much to prove, and played every single game at an intensity level never equaled. They never dialed it in -

They win about 58 games and lose in playoffs.


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I believe Rodman producing good basketball has more to do with PJ than Michael Jordan.

You can give Phil more credit - that's fine. Rodman in Chicago only worked with Jordan. Otherwise bulls would not have gotten him


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[Joao Saraiva]

They wouldn't win the title because the only way to control rodman was to have Jordan in the team.

Without Jordan rodman becomes a wild card. They also do not have the incredible focus the bulls had that year.

Jordan had so much to prove, and played every single game at an intensity level never equaled. They never dialed it in -

They win about 58 games and lose in playoffs.


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I believe Rodman producing good basketball has more to do with PJ than Michael Jordan.

You can give Phil more credit - that's fine. Rodman in Chicago only worked with Jordan. Otherwise bulls would not have gotten him


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Rodman also only worked with Phil. So I'll go with the obvious and say it was the coach. What evidence do you have it was Michael Jordan?

[DQuinn1575]

The bulls were very close to not taking rodman; he didn't fit in with the character qualifications the Jerry's had for players.

After the Orlando playoff it was obvious the bulls needed more rebounding to move that team to a championship level.

There were a lot of concerns about rodman; not only his character in general but also his treatment of the bulls in 1991.

Rodman obviously seeked attention . In Chicago he could get that, but he also had to accept the terms that he wouldn't be bigger than Jordan.

Rodman was fine with that, as he was able to become a celebrity.

The key was to challenge rodman and keep him on line. Jackson realized this and thought this could be accomplished. But it was Jordan's presence that set the bar for rodman, and also kept him in line.

So Phil gets credit for taking the chance on rodman and making the tough sell to management.

But the plan wouldn't have worked except for Jordan.


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[D.Brasco]

Payton did a masterful job of D'ing up Jordan in the finals, assuming they still met-up in this scenario I wonder how Payton would have done against Wade?

[Senior]

I think we can agree that the Bulls will still win 60+ games and be championship favorites. For the most part 09 Wade is about 90% of 96 Jordan, slightly worse FT shooter, slightly worse defender, maybe Rodman acts out a little more, minor things like that. Bulls still reach the Finals.

I wonder how Payton would have done against Wade?

This is the thing that makes me hesitant to say the Bulls win. Payton didn't start defending Jordan full time until Game 4. Does George Karl keep Payton off Wade for that long? I feel like Payton would be one of the best defenders all-time to put the clamps on Wade, especially in the grind it out, hand check everyone to death late 90s. We saw that even Jordan had trouble against Payton in Games 4-6 as Seattle won Games 4 and 5 and Jordan even went 5/19 in Game 6. I really think Karl has Payton take Wade earlier than Game 4 just because it's a more natural match up than Jordan.

So if Payton could do an even better job on Wade than Jordan and if Payton starts on Wade in Game 1 instead of Game 4 when Seattle is already down 3-0...makes me think Bulls lose in the Finals. Course, if Wade stays Payton-free until Game 4 and up 3-0 the Wade-Bulls still win.

[Basketballefan]

I'm surprised anyone thinks that 09 wade wasn't as good or even better than 96 MJ.

96 MJ 30 7 4 58 TS%
09 Wade: 30 5 8 58 TS%

The only way the bulls don't win is if Wade gets hurt in the playoffs.

[DQuinn1575]

[quote="Basketballefan"]I'm surprised anyone thinks that 09 wade wasn't as good or even better than 96 MJ.

96 MJ 30 7 4 58 TS%
09 Wade: 30 5 8 58 TS%

The only way the bulls don't win is if Wade gets hurt in the playoffs.[/
quote]

I'm surprised anyone can think wade was close to Jordan in 96.
Do you really understand what it took to win 72 games?




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[Basketballefan]

I'm surprised anyone thinks that 09 wade wasn't as good or even better than 96 MJ.

96 MJ 30 7 4 58 TS%
09 Wade: 30 5 8 58 TS%

The only way the bulls don't win is if Wade gets hurt in the playoffs.[/
quote]

I'm surprised anyone can think wade was close to Jordan in 96.
Do you really understand what it took to win 72 games?




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I understand that it takes a team and not just one individual. That's common sense. I see no reason outside of durability that Wade couldn't have had similar results regular season or postseason.

[tbomb25]

There is a key tangible difference between 09 Wade and Jordan that could prevent them from winning the championship....Wade doesent move nearly as well as Jordan without the ball not any version of Wade...oh and dont forget the triangle offense requires good consistent movement....without it the way that Bulls team was constructed that team would have to create off the dribble more and everyone including Jordan or Wade and Pippen would be way less efficient considering the rest that team was pretty pedestrian creating for themselves without Jordan and Pippen, they would play similar to the Thunder...which is very up and down like a Rollercoaster....

[Shot Clock]

The big differences I see were

Defensive intensity - I just don't see Wade having the doberman intensity that defined their defense

Drive - Jordan pushed that team hard all season

Post game - the triangle needs a post presence and the Bulls were lacking one that year. Jordan filled in that gap.

Leadership - keeping Rodman in line was a joint effort and Jordan's intolerance for BS was part of that

[Prokorov]

How far do you see that team going and/or what are some noticeable differences there from how they actually were?

2nd round? conference finals?

i dont see a ring