Tim Duncan V Hakeem Olajuwon V Shaq

[JordansBulls]

Any order is acceptable for these 3 players.

[Sports Realist]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

[lukekarts]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

Without disclosing my preference, the case against Shaq isn't that hard.

Both Duncan and Hakeem are superior defenders to Shaq. Hakeem more significantly so.

Neither Hakeem or Duncan had a (somewhat) exploitable weakness like Shaq did.

I think Hakeem would've won at least as many titles as Duncan or Shaq if given the same circumstances.

Hakeem + Penny = title
Hakeem + Kobe = 2 titles, minimum
Hakeem + Wade = 1 title, minimum

People seem to forget that each time Hakeem played with an actual All Star talent (86 Sampson, 95 Drexler) he made the finals. He lost in 86 against the legendary Celtics. Then he never played with a legit all star until Drexler arrived in 95, a year after he demolished the playoffs with a fantastic run.

[Ballerhogger]

Rather difficult for me but
Duncan
Hakeem
SHAQ

Its really close but i have them in this order.

[Ballerhogger]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

i guess you missed his 04 performance then?

[Ballerhogger]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

Without disclosing my preference, the case against Shaq isn't that hard.

Both Duncan and Hakeem are superior defenders to Shaq. Hakeem more significantly so.

Neither Hakeem or Duncan had a (somewhat) exploitable weakness like Shaq did.

I think Hakeem would've won at least as many titles as Duncan or Shaq if given the same circumstances.

Hakeem + Penny = title
Hakeem + Kobe = 2 titles, minimum
Hakeem + Wade = 1 title, minimum

People seem to forget that each time Hakeem played with an actual All Star talent (86 Sampson, 95 Drexler) he made the finals. He lost in 86 against the legendary Celtics. Then he never played with a legit all star until Drexler arrived in 95, a year after he demolished the playoffs with a fantastic run.

Hakeem and kobe would of won 4 in my opinion
Hakeem and Wade would of won 2
Penny and Hakeem would won 1

[jaypo]

I can see arguments for each. But Shaq lead his team to a 3 peat. Akeem repeated once. And Duncan never repeated. And Shaq played in the same conference for most of he and Timmy's time overlap. Sure, Akeem's and Duncan's defense were better than Shaq's (yet I still think Timmy's is overrated). But I think Shaq is getting shortchanged on this thread.

I can accept each one above the others, but I don't think it's a clear cut decision. I think Shaq has a stronger case for #1 on this list.

[Shot Clock]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

i guess you missed his 04 performance then?

Huh?

2004 Finals vs Detroit
Shaq 27p/11r/2a .631 FG%/.615 TS% ( it is lower then his FG%)

Duncan the next year against Detroit 2005 Finals

21p/14r/2a/2b .419 FG%/.471 TS%

[DayofMourning]

Hakeem played basketball as good as any player I've ever seen.

Duncan has dominated since day one, and is uncannily consistent.

Shaq could have been the best of all three, but had personality problems that kept him from being that. Accomplished quite a bit for having not maximized his potential. Could have been the greatest ever, but isn't, and sits behind both Hakeem and Duncan for me.

[Sports Realist]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

i guess you missed his 04 performance then?

What happened in 2004?

DOMINATING the Detroit Pistons and their GOAT like defense to the extent of 27/11/2 on 63%? Games of 36/20 while his partner in crime chucked him out of a title?

A 12th year Shaq, at that...

The same team, but an inferior version, that one year later, a 7th year TIM DUNCAN, at the end of his prime, folded against, shooting 42% FG and 47% TS for the series? Being one of the only two men ever to win FMVP while not leading the team in Win-Shares? (Ginobili did... Other being Kobe/Gasol in '10)
Games of 14 points on 5-15 33%, 16 points on 5-17 29% (back-to-back games) and 25 points on 10-27 37%...


Yes, that all did happen, and just further demonstrates Shaq's clear edge over Tim Duncan.

[DayofMourning]

Hakeem + Penny = title
Hakeem + Kobe = 2 titles, minimum
Hakeem + Wade = 1 title, minimum

People seem to forget that each time Hakeem played with an actual All Star talent (86 Sampson, 95 Drexler) he made the finals. He lost in 86 against the legendary Celtics. Then he never played with a legit all star until Drexler arrived in 95, a year after he demolished the playoffs with a fantastic run.

I think the bolded prediction makes the most sense if Wade deals with the same injury issues as he dealt with in the past.

IF Wade was healthy, then he's the perfect teammate for any big man. A healthy Wade and Hakeem with a good supporting cast (i.e., lots of shooters) wins a handful of championships.

[Sports Realist]

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

Without disclosing my preference, the case against Shaq isn't that hard.

Both Duncan and Hakeem are superior defenders to Shaq. Hakeem more significantly so.

Neither Hakeem or Duncan had a (somewhat) exploitable weakness like Shaq did.

I think Hakeem would've won at least as many titles as Duncan or Shaq if given the same circumstances.

Hakeem + Penny = title
Hakeem + Kobe = 2 titles, minimum
Hakeem + Wade = 1 title, minimum

People seem to forget that each time Hakeem played with an actual All Star talent (86 Sampson, 95 Drexler) he made the finals. He lost in 86 against the legendary Celtics. Then he never played with a legit all star until Drexler arrived in 95, a year after he demolished the playoffs with a fantastic run.

Except Shaq wasn't some mediocre defender, but an intimidating beast... Voted 2nd on the DPOTY ranking in 2000.

And also, you just like everyone else voting for Hakeem here, seems to think the way Hakeem played in 1994 and 1995, he did throughout his entire career... The false image that everyone has.

During the 1st and 2nd 3-peat, Barkley/Malone were the 2nd best players, and there wasn't much that separated Hakeem from a Patrick Ewing or David Robinson.

1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

After Robinsons's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem, so was Ewing.

Hakeem before 1993 was a 1st round loosing machine. A Hakeem who hadn't found religion yet, and was quite simply a hothead. 8 1st round exits, and mostly he didn't lose to teams who later made the finals, either.

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

Game 4: Rockets up 21-10 after the 1st quarter, Jazz outscore the Rockets 83-50 in the next/last 3 quarters!
Rockets were just down 4 going into the 4th, Jazz outscore Rockets 28-10 in the 4th, while Hakeem for the game had 27 points on 10-29 35%....

Obviously the Rockets lost the following deciding game 5.

Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics.

Shaq by his 4th season had Hakeem. Shaq is also the only one Hakeem didn't outplay during his 2 post-seasons in 1994 and 1995... A 3rd year Shaquille O'Neal held MORE than his own against PEAK Olajuwon.

In fact, purely by the numbers, Shaquille O'Neal outplayed Hakeem... Not the other way around.

[jaypo]

Hakeem played basketball as good as any player I've ever seen.

Duncan has dominated since day one, and is uncannily consistent.

Shaq could have been the best of all three, but had personality problems that kept him from being that. Accomplished quite a bit for having not maximized his potential. Could have been the greatest ever, but isn't, and sits behind both Hakeem and Duncan for me.

I can never, for the life of me understand the "should have been the best ever but didn't live up to his potential" argument. 4 rings, 3 FMVP's in a row, near the top in many statistical categories and countless accolades isn't enough? Maybe that WAS his potential. How many players in the world would be happy with just 1 of his rings?

Fact- Duncan lead his team to 3 titles and won 2 others as a 2nd or 4th option. Yet, he never repeated. Akeem repeated and won 2 in a row. Shaq LEAD his team to a 3 peat (in the same conference as TD) and won a 4th as a 2nd option. That, IMHO, gives him a reason to be listed ahead of the other 2.

For all the "Shaq was a bad defender" mess- he wasn't a bad defender. Just not as good as Akeem. But Akeem was the 2nd best defensive center ever, so that's not necessarily a bad thing. And Duncan may have been a "better" defender, but Shaq was also a great man 2 man defender and a big intimidator in the paint. You can't really put a stat on how many times someone refuses to drive to the paint because of Shaq waiting to erase the shot.

[jaypo]

The thing about Shaq's defense is that people seem to only remember his later years where is mobility was not where it used to be and his difficulty covering the PNR. However, the man was 7 ft 1, 350 lbs. You can't expect him to be able to cover Tony Parker, Mike Bibby, and Damon Stoudamire on the perimeter. And you can't expect him to shut down the Utah PNR with Malone and Stockton. Nobody could. People like Akeem and Timmy did a little better, but Akeem was 6'10 and about 260. Add an extra 100 lbs to his frame and ask him to remain as mobile. Shaq was able to use that size and athletic ability to create and make shots at an historically high rate. But his size was his disadvantage on the perimeter. Yet, he was still a GREAT man to man defender (ask Yao, Akeem, DRob, Ewing, and TD himself), and as I said before, a great anchor in the paint. I remember multiple coaches saying that they had to change their entire game plans on BOTH ends of the floor when preparing against any team Shaq played for. If that doesn't dispel the myth of Shaq's "poor" defense, I don't know what else to tell you.

[DayofMourning]

Spoiler:

I don't see how Shaq could NOT be at the top...

What Duncan is doing right now, was done by Shaq in '07, '08, '09... Possibly even 2010.

Shaq clearly is the best, most dominant, greatest peak player... Best scorer, most efficient, best playoff and finals performer.

Without disclosing my preference, the case against Shaq isn't that hard.

Both Duncan and Hakeem are superior defenders to Shaq. Hakeem more significantly so.

Neither Hakeem or Duncan had a (somewhat) exploitable weakness like Shaq did.

I think Hakeem would've won at least as many titles as Duncan or Shaq if given the same circumstances.

Hakeem + Penny = title
Hakeem + Kobe = 2 titles, minimum
Hakeem + Wade = 1 title, minimum

People seem to forget that each time Hakeem played with an actual All Star talent (86 Sampson, 95 Drexler) he made the finals. He lost in 86 against the legendary Celtics. Then he never played with a legit all star until Drexler arrived in 95, a year after he demolished the playoffs with a fantastic run.

Except Shaq wasn't some mediocre defender, but an intimidating beast... Voted 2nd on the DPOTY ranking in 2000.

And also, you just like everyone else voting for Hakeem here, seems to think the way Hakeem played in 1994 and 1995, he did throughout his entire career... The false image that everyone has.

During the 1st and 2nd 3-peat, Barkley/Malone were the 2nd best players, and there wasn't much that separated Hakeem from a Patrick Ewing or David Robinson.

1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

After Robinsons's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem, so was Ewing.

Hakeem before 1993 was a 1st round loosing machine. A Hakeem who hadn't found religion yet, and was quite simply a hothead. 8 1st round exits, and mostly he didn't lose to teams who later made the finals, either.

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

Game 4: Rockets up 21-10 after the 1st quarter, Jazz outscore the Rockets 83-50 in the next/last 3 quarters!
Rockets were just down 4 going into the 4th, Jazz outscore Rockets 28-10 in the 4th, while Hakeem for the game had 27 points on 10-29 35%....

Obviously the Rockets lost the following deciding game 5.

Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics.

Shaq by his 4th season had Hakeem. Shaq is also the only one Hakeem didn't outplay during his 2 post-seasons in 1994 and 1995... A 3rd year Shaquille O'Neal held MORE than his own against PEAK Olajuwon.

In fact, purely by the numbers, Shaquille O'Neal outplayed Hakeem... Not the other way around

Hakeem existed before 93/94. He was amazing before that. If his '86 Finals team hadn't fallen apart, then he might have a few more titles. It takes more than one player to win a championship. He was the victim of some pretty bad luck prior to his first championship.

Shaq was fortunate enough to have some pretty good teams around him, winning his titles with the best 2 guards of his generation. That doesn't take away from his performances, but Hakeem didn't have that. When he had a legit 2nd option (Sampson), he made it to the Finals, in his second year in the league. In the process, the Rockets defeated the powerhouse Lakers.

No need to muddy Hakeem's past by overlooking what likely would have happened had his team stayed intact.

As far as stats go, Hakeem doesn't pale in comparison to any of his contemporaries, including Shaq.

[Shot Clock]

And also, you just like everyone else voting for Hakeem here, seems to think the way Hakeem played in 1994 and 1995, he did throughout his entire career... The false image that everyone has.

During the 1st and 2nd 3-peat, Barkley/Malone were the 2nd best players, and there wasn't much that separated Hakeem from a Patrick Ewing or David Robinson.

1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

No idea where you are going with this but do you think Duncan is going to separate himself from these guys?

After Robinsons's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem, so was Ewing.

Guessing you are referring to MVP voting that was heavily influenced by team record.

Hakeem before 1993 was a 1st round loosing machine. A Hakeem who hadn't found religion yet, and was quite simply a hothead. 8 1st round exits, and mostly he didn't lose to teams who later made the finals, either.

Hothead?
1st round "loosing" machine's don't beat the showtime Lakers. But when their team falls apart due to drugs and injuries they tend to suffer. Short first round series tend to see weird results.

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

1988 he was losing to the Mavs while putting up 38p/17r/2a/2s/3b on .641 TS%. He should have played better.

Think you meant 1998 when Barkley was sidelined in Game 5 with an injury. ....and only played 9 minutes of Game 4. Hakeem was 35.

Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics.

Now hopping back a decade. Sonics were round two...are you drinking? Sonics had just beaten the 55 win Mavs. Houston had no answer for Dale Ellis or Tom Chambers. Hakeem still put up 31p/13r/4b on .638 TS%. He really needs to play better.

Shaq by his 4th season had Hakeem. Shaq is also the only one Hakeem didn't outplay during his 2 post-seasons in 1994 and 1995... A 3rd year Shaquille O'Neal held MORE than his own against PEAK Olajuwon.

In fact, purely by the numbers, Shaquille O'Neal outplayed Hakeem... Not the other way around.

I don't think either can claim dominance of that series. Although a sweep tips it Hakeems way since you seem to feel losing defines Hakeem during a series, winning must as well.

[JeepCSC]

Shaq was a beast who always looked like the most dominating force on my screen and usually was. But Hakeem was better (to me). Duncan is behind those two, but not by much. You can't go wrong with any 3 in any order.

[Sports Realist]

And also, you just like everyone else voting for Hakeem here, seems to think the way Hakeem played in 1994 and 1995, he did throughout his entire career... The false image that everyone has.

During the 1st and 2nd 3-peat, Barkley/Malone were the 2nd best players, and there wasn't much that separated Hakeem from a Patrick Ewing or David Robinson.

1990: Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson (rookie)
1991: Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem
1992: Robinson, Ewing, Daughtery
1993: Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson
1994: Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq
1995: Robinson, Shaq, Hakeem
1996: Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq
1997: Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq (Robinson missed all but 6 games)

No idea where you are going with this but do you think Duncan is going to separate himself from these guys?

After Robinsons's rookie year he was usually ahead of Hakeem, so was Ewing.

Guessing you are referring to MVP voting that was heavily influenced by team record.

Hakeem before 1993 was a 1st round loosing machine. A Hakeem who hadn't found religion yet, and was quite simply a hothead. 8 1st round exits, and mostly he didn't lose to teams who later made the finals, either.

Hothead?
1st round "loosing" machine's don't beat the showtime Lakers. But when their team falls apart due to drugs and injuries they tend to suffer. Short first round series tending to see weird results.

1988 1st round vs Utah Jazz: 5 Game series, Rockets are up 2-1. 1 win away from winning the series.

1988 he was losing to the Mavs while putting up 38p/17r/2a/2s/3b on .641 TS%. He should have played better.

Think you meant 1998 when Barkley was sidelined in Game 5 with an injury. ....and only played 9 minutes of Game 4. Hakeem was 35.

Hakeem went sailing in the 1st round once again, like the previous year in 1987 when he was eliminated by the 39-43 Sonics.

Now hopping back a decade. Sonics were round two...are you drinking? Sonics had just beaten the 55 win Mavs. Houston had no answer for Dale Ellis or Tom Chambers. Hakeem still put up 31p/13r/4b on .638 TS%. He really needs to play better.

Shaq by his 4th season had Hakeem. Shaq is also the only one Hakeem didn't outplay during his 2 post-seasons in 1994 and 1995... A 3rd year Shaquille O'Neal held MORE than his own against PEAK Olajuwon.

In fact, purely by the numbers, Shaquille O'Neal outplayed Hakeem... Not the other way around.

I don't think either can claim dominance of that series. Although a sweep tips it Hakeems way since you seem to feel losing defines Hakeem during a series, winning must as well.

Before Hakeem found religion, he was a bad man... Him punching someone else wasn't a rare thing, and his game wasn't nearly as refined as it was in about '1993... You should know this.

1998 it is..

I don't think anyone did any outplaying in 1995 between Hakeem/Shaq, but I also feel Hakeem lost a bit too much in the 1st round, and NOT against UBER teams... He did play fine most post-seasons, though... Therefore I should take the "1st round exits" thing back. Rest stands.

[Shot Clock]

He wasn't a "bad man" he was frustrated with his team because his teammates were coke heads, his coaches sucked and his ownership was doing nothing about it. He was certainly not a 'bad man'

His game was refined early on in his career. Go back and look at the moves he had in the playoffs against the Lakers and Celts. This wasn't Dwight Howard. Rudy changed the teams approach. Hakeem gained confidence in his team and his passing improved. He became the focus of their offense and got more shots. People like to think there was something about his game that improved but it was how his coach used him that improved. And he wasn't surrounded by a bunch of guys looking for their own shots first.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

What happened in 2004?

DOMINATING the Detroit Pistons and their GOAT like defense to the extent of 27/11/2 on 63%? Games of 36/20 while his partner in crime chucked him out of a title?

A 12th year Shaq, at that....

Yeah. Kobe's defintely at fault...and what else happened? Shaq being outrebounded by Ben Wallace h2h.

Yeah just like his b2b series vs Utah in the 90s Shaq not bothering to give a hoot about anything other than scoring. The paint opened like the Red Sea as Detroit's guards cakewalked to the basket most of that series.

Tex Winter blasting his non existent screen n roll defence in that series: "Shaq is overrated". Don't you remember that?