Who are your top 10 offensive players of all time

ceiling raiser · Post #21 » by **ceiling raiser** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:05 pm

ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

How many seasons at his prime offensive impact is Bird from Magic and Jordan?

ElGee · Post #22 » by **ElGee** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:10 pm

fpliii wrote:
ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

How many seasons at his prime offensive impact is Bird from Magic and Jordan?

One from Magic. About 1.5 to pass Jordan.

FX20014 · Post #23 » by **FX20014** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:37 pm

Jordan
Wilt
Oscar
Kareem
Baylor
K.Malone
Pettit
M.Malone
Wilkins
J.West

Post #24 » by **PaulieWal** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:02 pm

ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

Where do you put LeBron? Is he lower because he's still playing?

ronnymac2 · Post #25 » by **ronnymac2** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:21 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:Take your pick. Only guys with guaranteed spots in the top-10 are LBJ, MJ, Bird, and Magic. Possibly Nash, Shaq, and KAJ. But those first 4 are offensive gods.

How do you rank those 7 guys in order?

Damn, in order? Don't quote me on any of this, because everything is so razon thin. :lol:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Larry Bird
Steve Nash
Shaquille O'Neal
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

That'd be my take. Could be convinced to rearrange the whole thing.

EDIT: That'd be for Peak.

ElGee · Post #26 » by **ElGee** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:45 am

PaulieWal wrote:
ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

Where do you put LeBron? Is he lower because he's still playing?

Yes -- he'll bump Shaq shortly. I don't think as highly as his earlier years on offense though.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #27 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:11 am

ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

I don't think Kobe has any case against Shaq even career wise.

Peak Shaq was definitely a better offensive anchor then Peak Kobe.
Not a large gap statistically but Shaq was far more consistent and far more resilient against tougher defensive teams & tougher defensive matchups.

Their non-Peak years are significantly further apart with Shaq gaining a huge edge in raw TS% to go along with the advantages I mentioned above.

Don't really see the case for Dirk either.
I have him more on the Kobe level as an offensive anchor which is firmly below the Shaq/Kareem level.
Bird also doesn't really seem like a better offensive anchor then O'neal even considering his savant like off-ball ability.

The rest I can accept though I would also rank Barkley below him. Barkley is kind of a poor mans O'neal.
Worse volume scorer, more of a ball stopper, doesn't warp defenses as much etc...

Don't think Lebron is close to Shaq at the moment either. Not at all.
The only potential way he could surpass Shaq (in the distant future) is through much better longevity.
Shaq warped defenses more then LBJ does and he was a much better scorer against varied/tougher defenses.
No way Peak Shaq is getting shutdown by Dallas, an old Spurs team or Boston who couldn't even stop Grandpa O'neal.

RSCD3_ wrote:If I'm reading you right you prefer Hakeem on offense to LeBron and Bird?

Lebron (especially young Lebron) had a pretty bad achilles heal as a scorer which good defensive teams could exploit.
I think I would prefer Hakeem as my offensive anchor because I trust him better to maintain his effectiveness when facing tougher defensive teams & matchups.

To be fair though outside of maybe my Top 4 (Jordan, Kareem, Shaq & Magic) I don't have any strict order.
Guys like Bron, Bird & even Kobe could probably be ranked higher on my list.

Post #28 » by **FJS** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:48 pm

No love for The Mailman?

Dude it's the only one to score 2000 points or more in 12 seasons in a row, the second in all time scorers list.
17 seasons of 20 ppg or more.

Dipper 13 · Post #29 » by **Dipper 13** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:50 pm

wootwoot33 wrote:

do you happen to have the full series of the '93 Finals? I would love to get a better look at Barkley after his time in Philly

The series can be found on Youtube from various uploaders, I have uploaded Game 2.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRvVYJ3eJUQ[/youtube]

kayess · Post #30 » by **kayess** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:14 pm

ElGee wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
ElGee wrote:Based on career value -- not peak -- I have it as:

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3/4 Bird/Barkley
5/6 Nash/Kareem
7. Dirk
8/9 Kobe/Oscar
10. Shaq

West gets the HM. And the one I second-guess is Jordan.

Where do you put LeBron? Is he lower because he's still playing?

Yes -- he'll bump Shaq shortly. I don't think as highly as his earlier years on offense though.

How many seasons of LeBron's "average" prime season (i.e., '09-'10, '12-'14) before he can overtake Jordan?

ElGee · Post #31 » by **ElGee** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:50 pm

kayess wrote:
ElGee wrote:
PaulieWal wrote:
Where do you put LeBron? Is he lower because he's still playing?

Yes -- he'll bump Shaq shortly. I don't think as highly as his earlier years on offense though.

How many seasons of LeBron's "average" prime season (i.e., '09-'10, '12-'14) before he can overtake Jordan?

On offense? It would be a good amount. On the overall list...LeBron is coming like a freight train. If he were to maintain his prime level, in 3 years he'll move into the Russell/Jordan category of career value on my list. While I don't expect that to quite happen (3 more years at this level would be amazing), I do anticipate him finishing no lower than 3rd on my list by the end of his career with a good shot at 1st.

It's hard for me to believe this but LeBron James is still in his 20's. He's lapping the field in WS by this age, has as many MVP's as Russell (1 short of Kareem) and scored more points than anyone ever by this age. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

kayess · Post #32 » by **kayess** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:25 pm

ElGee wrote:
kayess wrote:
ElGee wrote:
Yes -- he'll bump Shaq shortly. I don't think as highly as his earlier years on offense though.

How many seasons of LeBron's "average" prime season (i.e., '09-'10, '12-'14) before he can overtake Jordan?

On offense? It would be a good amount. On the overall list...LeBron is coming like a freight train. If he were to maintain his prime level, in 3 years he'll move into the Russell/Jordan category of career value on my list. While I don't expect that to quite happen (3 more years at this level would be amazing), I do anticipate him finishing no lower than 3rd on my list by the end of his career with a good shot at 1st.

It's hard for me to believe this but LeBron James is still in his 20's. He's lapping the field in WS by this age, has as many MVP's as Russell (1 short of Kareem) and scored more points than anyone ever by this age. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

That is some unbelievable stuff. But your comment about offense only value/overall value - does it mean you think LeBron is better by quite a bit than Jordan on D?

Basketballefan · Post #33 » by **Basketballefan** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:35 pm

I don't understand the argument for Dirk being a better offensive player than Kobe, Kobe is the more versatile scorer, better passer and has had the better ORTg throughout his career. Yeah Dirk has been more efficient but he has also scored in much lesser volume, so efficiency will eventually go down as you're taking more shots. Dirk wouldn't have a 58-60ts% if he was averaging 30ppg+. I don't know much about ORAPM but i understand Kobe wins in that department as well. So what's Dirk's argument, other than biases/ignorance?

Post #34 » by **PaulieWal** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:18 pm

Basketballefan wrote:I don't understand the argument for Dirk being a better offensive player than Kobe, Kobe is the more versatile scorer, better passer and has had the better ORTg throughout his career. Yeah Dirk has been more efficient but he has also scored in much lesser volume, so efficiency will eventually go down as you're taking more shots. Dirk wouldn't have a 58-60ts% if he was averaging 30ppg+. I don't know much about ORAPM but i understand Kobe wins in that department as well. So what's Dirk's argument, other than biases/ignorance?

Dirk has better ORtg than Kobe in both the RS and the PS, 117>111, 117>110.

Basketballefan · Post #35 » by **Basketballefan** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:58 pm

PaulieWal wrote:
Basketballefan wrote:I don't understand the argument for Dirk being a better offensive player than Kobe, Kobe is the more versatile scorer, better passer and has had the better ORTg throughout his career. Yeah Dirk has been more efficient but he has also scored in much lesser volume, so efficiency will eventually go down as you're taking more shots. Dirk wouldn't have a 58-60ts% if he was averaging 30ppg+. I don't know much about ORAPM but i understand Kobe wins in that department as well. So what's Dirk's argument, other than biases/ignorance?

Dirk has better ORtg than Kobe in both the RS and the PS, 117>111, 117>110.

Your right. I misread the numbers somehow, but what about offensive rapm?

atlantabbq99 · Post #36 » by **atlantabbq99** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:10 pm

Wilt
Jordan
Kareem
Karl Malone
Magic
Bird
George Gervin
Oscar
Shaq
Rick Barry
Dominique

In that order....

Basketballefan · Post #37 » by **Basketballefan** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:09 pm

atlantabbq99 wrote:Wilt
Jordan
Kareem
Karl Malone
Magic
Bird
George Gervin
Oscar
Shaq
Rick Barry
Dominique

In that order....

That's 11...anyway it's utterly ridiculous that you think Wilkins is a top 11 offensive player ever.

Jaivl · Post #38 » by **Jaivl** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:39 pm

Basketballefan wrote:That's 11...anyway it's utterly ridiculous that you think Wilkins is a top 11 offensive player ever.

"atlanta"

"99"

Take it easy man.

Doormatt · Post #39 » by **Doormatt** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:26 am

RayBan-Sematra wrote:Jordan
Magic
Shaq
Kareem
Oscar

This seems like a pretty solid Top 5.

Then we have
West
Barkley
Dirk
Nash
Hakeem

To round out the Top 10

There are also guys like

Lebron
Kobe
Bird
Gervin
Prime Wade (if we discount longevity)
Prime T-Mac maybe.

Durant is a guy who looks like he'll be Top 10 eventually.

hakeem has absolutely no place on this list, let alone over guys like lebron and kobe.

Doormatt · Post #40 » by **Doormatt** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:33 am

kayess wrote:
That is some unbelievable stuff. But your comment about offense only value/overall value - does it mean you think LeBron is better by quite a bit than Jordan on D?

i feel like that should be pretty straightforward no? i mean just look at the positions lebron is able to play defensively compared to Jordan, lebron can legit guard 1-4 and has spent very, very brief time guarding centers as well, MJ at best only 1-3, and i dont think he has nearly the consistency of lebron. Lebron right off the bat has a huge advantage with his build+athleticism. Lebron is a defensive anchor on the perimeter for his teams, comparable to Pippen, i dont think Jordan was ever on that level other than when he was very locked in, and since we obviously arent stupid enough to judge players on inconsistent time periods such as being "locked in" or "on fire", then i dont think MJ compares defensively.