RealGM Top 100 List #24

[FJS]

I'm going with Mikan.

Not a big fan of him, and I think that Basketball has nothing to do with modern era, but between all the guys who were playing he was the best of them. 5 rings in 7 years, 6 all nba first make to choose him.

I don't think Nash should be elected as soon.

[Colbinii]

I am going to vote for Nash.

Based on my limited knowledge of Mikan I have a hard time imagining him being a greater offensive player then Nash in this generation.
Then considering his noted lack of mobility I am not sure how good defensively Mikan would be. Seems like he might get abused in transition and even in the hc I am not sure how much value he would have or where his value would come from.

Rim protection? (not sure he has the body for it)
M2m defense?

Nash also has better longevity.

Why are you trying to simply translate Mikan from the 50's to today's NBA? Portability shouldn't work like that. And if it is the case that you personally believe in this hyperbole bull crap, Nash would get destroyed in the 50's/60's based on the physicality of the game alone.

Not sure about his defense? What about the fact that the MNL had a dRTG of 80.7, 79.3, 83.6, 83.5 in Mikan's final 5 seasons, then in 55 their dRTG shot up to 88.6.

[john248]

Spoiler:

Excluding pre shot clock is just lazy approach. Evaluating Mikan isn't really that much different than for example Pettit or Russell. And I would really like to see how people see differences between '54 and '57.

I'm going to vote for Mikan too this time, reasoning was elaborated in previous threads, but in short:

- GOAT level defensive impact;

- he was clearly by far the most important player in Lakers dynasty, they lost only when he was injured;

- even after rule change (lane before '52 season) invented specifically to limit him, Mikan still was the best player and led Minneapolis to three straight titles;

- per 36 stats from '56 indicate he was still very productive, just wasn't able to play more than 20 mpg, because of age/injuries, but his drop off in production after year and a half away from baskeball was stil not worse than Jordan's in the same situation in '95;

- data suggests that pre shot clock players were doing fine in shot clock era, even in early 60s. of course there was some drop off in production, but not as big, especially if we consider age.

- avaliable footage shows that Mikan was very mobile for a man of his size;

- if you think that Mikan dominated because of his height, then explain why +10 other players as big or bigger than Mikan didn't dominated in pre shot clock era.

What evidence suggests that Mikan had "goat level defensive impact"?

Mikan consistently anchored the best defense in the league. He also has 1 season in 52 where his team DRTG was -7 better than league average and 5 better than the next best team which is similar to a Russell type impact on that end. In the 53 Finals, the Knicks were a 38.6% FG team but drop to 34.7% in the Finals. Offensively though, his high volume scoring was near league average which, at least to me, indicates that his scoring kept the team afloat while the defense was what really hammered it home.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Why are you trying to simply translate Mikan from the 50's to today's NBA? Portability shouldn't work like that. And if it is the case that you personally believe in this hyperbole bull crap, Nash would get destroyed in the 50's/60's based on the physicality of the game alone.

Not sure about his defense? What about the fact that the MNL had a dRTG of 80.7, 79.3, 83.6, 83.5 in Mikan's final 5 seasons, then in 55 their dRTG shot up to 88.6.

If we were ignoring portability and simply judging players by how good they were relative to their competition then Mikan would have probably been voted into the Top 10 or certainly in the Top 15.
No way he'd be ranked behind a guy like Patrick Ewing if were were ignoring portability...

Regarding Mikan and defense.
Hard to really say because the NBA was so different back then.
Maybe Mikan was a defensive force back then but he could end up being a below average defender in the current league.

From what little I know about Mikan he didn't seem to have a build that would allow him to be a really great rim protector and if his mobility was bad like I have heard then he probably wouldn't be very good at transition or perimeter help defense either.

Offensively I am also not sold on him.
The one year he played when they had the clock he posted a 44%TS in the playoffs on middling per minute volume.
Not saying that is proof of anything because maybe a Prime or younger Mikan would have done much better but I also currently do not feel he would be a super efficient high volume scorer in todays league nor have I seen anyone post a good argument to why he would be.
If someone has made such an argument and I missed it please show me it or link me to it.

Had Mikan played in the middle to late 60's then I think I would have a better grasp on what he'd be capable of today.
The fact that he played most of his years before the clock and then struggled in the one year they had the clock does not give me much to work with. The game was really different back then as was the competition.

[DQuinn1575]

The one year he played when they had the clock he posted a 44%TS in the playoffs on middling per minute volume.
Not saying that is proof of anything because maybe a Prime or younger Mikan would have done much better but I also currently do not feel he would be a super efficient high volume scorer in todays league nor have I seen anyone post a good argument to why he would be.
If someone has made such an argument and I missed it please show me it or link me to it.

Had Mikan played in the middle to late 60's then I think I would have a better grasp on what he'd be capable of today.
The fact that he played most of his years before the clock and then struggled in the one year they had the clock does not give me much to work with. The game was really different back then as was the competition.

The year he played with a shot clock was after he came out of retirement.
His WS/48 that partial year was higher than Jordan's when he came back to Washington.

When he played the league pace was slightly higher than today's.

[trex_8063]

Why are you trying to simply translate Mikan from the 50's to today's NBA? Portability shouldn't work like that. And if it is the case that you personally believe in this hyperbole bull crap, Nash would get destroyed in the 50's/60's based on the physicality of the game alone.

Not sure about his defense? What about the fact that the MNL had a dRTG of 80.7, 79.3, 83.6, 83.5 in Mikan's final 5 seasons, then in 55 their dRTG shot up to 88.6.

If we were ignoring portability and simply judging players by how good they were relative to their competition then Mikan would have probably been voted into the Top 10 or certainly in the Top 15.
No way he'd be ranked behind a guy like Patrick Ewing if were were ignoring portability...

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying we should ignore portability, but rather implying that he thinks you're using the "time machine method" of estimating portability (method of portability estimation being the thing he disagrees with).

[DQuinn1575]

Questions for runoff:

1) With how many quality years are we crediting each of the two?
2) Mikan - Can somebody elaborate a bit about his mobility and post scoring skillset?
3) Nash - If he stays with Dallas with Dirk (assume Nelly still steps down late in 04-05), how does this affect his development?

Like most everyone else I have seen little footage of George.

One thing to note is that the Pace on BB-Ref in the early 50s is about what it is today. The game went crazy fast in the early 60s, and has slowed down to about the same pace as the era that George Mikan dominated.
And team stalled against the Lakers (19-18 game being the famous example) - slowing down the Lakers team pace
The Lakers played a slower game to set up the big guy - which makes sense.

He moved fairly well for his size - I don't think that mobility would be a big issue.



Mikan had a very good hook shot with either hand.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTOX467D6PY[/youtube]

He shot well - high 70s from the FT line - but it was underhand. I don't have a good idea about his range.

He shot fadeaways, and seemed to score a fair amount on tip-ins and driving to the basket.
I assume everyone is familiar with the Mikan drill, and how he built up his game.



My major criticism if I was scouting him for today is that he didn't power the ball to the rim enough - it's the lack of dunking you see in those days. I'm not a time travel guy, but based on his size and smarts, I think he would develop that for today's game.


The articles I quoted before from the 60s still compared him to Wilt and Russell. I couldn't find any articles from the 60s or 70s - searching the Sporting News, Sports Illustrated, the Chicago Tribune, and Newspaperarchive -
that said that Wilt and/or Russell would clearly dominate him.

I couldn't find anyone saying that Bellamy or Thurmond were at the level of MIkan.

[RayBan-Sematra]

The one year he played when they had the clock he posted a 44%TS in the playoffs on middling per minute volume.
Not saying that is proof of anything because maybe a Prime or younger Mikan would have done much better but I also currently do not feel he would be a super efficient high volume scorer in todays league nor have I seen anyone post a good argument to why he would be.
If someone has made such an argument and I missed it please show me it or link me to it.

Had Mikan played in the middle to late 60's then I think I would have a better grasp on what he'd be capable of today.
The fact that he played most of his years before the clock and then struggled in the one year they had the clock does not give me much to work with. The game was really different back then as was the competition.

The year he played with a shot clock was after he came out of retirement.
His WS/48 that partial year was higher than Jordan's when he came back to Washington.

When he played the league pace was slightly higher than today's.

I just don't see any evidence that Mikan would be a brutal offensive force in the league today.
In 7 playoff appearances he managed to post a 50+%TS only 2 times.

The game was different back then so I won't say his efficiency would be the same in a different era but I still don't have much to go on nor any reason to assume he would be very efficient in the league today.

I am not gonna judge Mikan though because I simply don't know enough about him and I have seen maybe one 5 second youtube clip of him.

[SactoKingsFan]

The one year he played when they had the clock he posted a 44%TS in the playoffs on middling per minute volume.
Not saying that is proof of anything because maybe a Prime or younger Mikan would have done much better but I also currently do not feel he would be a super efficient high volume scorer in todays league nor have I seen anyone post a good argument to why he would be.
If someone has made such an argument and I missed it please show me it or link me to it.

Had Mikan played in the middle to late 60's then I think I would have a better grasp on what he'd be capable of today.
The fact that he played most of his years before the clock and then struggled in the one year they had the clock does not give me much to work with. The game was really different back then as was the competition.

The year he played with a shot clock was after he came out of retirement.
His WS/48 that partial year was higher than Jordan's when he came back to Washington.

When he played the league pace was slightly higher than today's.

Jordan was 38 and had been retired longer than Mikan. Not sure how this is supposed to bolster the case for Mikan being ranked in the top 30.

[DQuinn1575]

The one year he played when they had the clock he posted a 44%TS in the playoffs on middling per minute volume.
Not saying that is proof of anything because maybe a Prime or younger Mikan would have done much better but I also currently do not feel he would be a super efficient high volume scorer in todays league nor have I seen anyone post a good argument to why he would be.
If someone has made such an argument and I missed it please show me it or link me to it.

Had Mikan played in the middle to late 60's then I think I would have a better grasp on what he'd be capable of today.
The fact that he played most of his years before the clock and then struggled in the one year they had the clock does not give me much to work with. The game was really different back then as was the competition.

The year he played with a shot clock was after he came out of retirement.
His WS/48 that partial year was higher than Jordan's when he came back to Washington.

When he played the league pace was slightly higher than today's.

Jordan was 38 and had been retired longer than Mikan. Not sure how this is supposed to bolster the case for Mikan being ranked in the top 30.

My viewpoint is I'm ignoring Milan's comeback just like I'm ignoring Jordan's. I'm also ignoring Moses malone's last few years.

I'm giving them no credit nor any subtractions or penalties for when their abilities are clearly below their personal average.

[Colbinii]

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying we should ignore portability, but rather implying that he thinks you're using the "time machine method" of estimating portability (method of portability estimation being the thing he disagrees with).

This is precisely my point. I question people who put weight into just transporting players 50 years and make claims of their athleticism compared to current players.

If we were ignoring portability and simply judging players by how good they were relative to their competition then Mikan would have probably been voted into the Top 10 or certainly in the Top 15.
No way he'd be ranked behind a guy like Patrick Ewing if were were ignoring portability...

It seems like you (Ray)just ignored most of my points and continued with your "I don't know what he did, so I am going to assume he the worst of every situation". I never said to ignore portability, what I am standing by, however, is the fact that you are using it incorrectly. Not only that, you ignored my point about Nash being destroyed physically during that Era. Do you have a response to this? Or is there "Not enough information that I want to believe so I am going to ignore all facts". By all means, if you want to do this, continue, but it really adds nothing to the thread and defeats the purpose of this project.

[Basketballefan]

Ill vote nash in the runoff. His superstar longevity aint great neither is mikan's, somebody said Nash wouldn't be as effective back in the 50s-60s because of physicality, i disagree because nash is a tough player he has played with black eyes, broken noses etc, got hip checked by horry. Mikan would be average in the 80s and onward. His competition was comical. Nash played in the brutal western conference and led Suns to 3 wcf, and would likely have a chmpionship had it not been for the Spurs. Whoever said nash wasnt capable of winning a title as the man is being ridiculous, give Nash a good defensive cast and he could certainly win a ring.

[Warspite]

Vote: Mikan

His overall dominance GOAT in pts and rebs when he retired.

He is also the biggest force for integration as he played the Globes and as commissioner of the ABA he expanded opportunity for minorities. He is a giant in the sport should be given his due.

[DQuinn1575]

I am not gonna judge Mikan though because I simply don't know enough about him and I have seen maybe one 5 second youtube clip of him.

If you are not going to judge players you don't know about and at least try and learn about those players then I don't know how to respond to you.

If it was me and I was asked to judge something I don't know about I would either learn enough about it or not vote.



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[DQuinn1575]

Vote: Mikan

His overall dominance GOAT in pts and rebs when he retired.

He is also the biggest force for integration as he played the Globes and as commissioner of the ABA he expanded opportunity for minorities. He is a giant in the sport should be given his due.

Not usually going for rewarding good deeds outside the court, but bill Russell talks of Mikan encouraging him when bill saw him while in high school. This would be. 1951 or so, with very few blacks in the league.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[colts18]

Havlicek's peak coincided during the weakest NBA era other than Mikan's awful era. You have to remember that. He was putting up his peak numbers in a weak NBA, yet he still couldn't lead his team anywhere until Cowens emerged.

[RSCD3_]

Vote: Mikan

His overall dominance GOAT in pts and rebs when he retired.

He is also the biggest force for integration as he played the Globes and as commissioner of the ABA he expanded opportunity for minorities. He is a giant in the sport should be given his due.

Not usually going for rewarding good deeds outside the court, but bill Russell talks of Mikan encouraging him when bill saw him while in high school. This would be. 1951 or so, with very few blacks in the league.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Would be interesting to see how much impact mikan had on him and what Russell though about his ability as a player. Mikan might have altered the course of nba history.

Also its hilarious to think that mikan, a laker ( albeit of the Minnesotan variety) might have facilitated the Celtics getting the best defensive force ever who would be a thorn in the lakers side

[Texas Chuck]

3) Nash - If he stays with Dallas with Dirk (assume Nelly still steps down late in 04-05), how does this affect his development?

Good question. I think the main Nash guys would say it hurts it since they have been quoted itt stating they think much less highly of Dallas Nash. But I'll let them speak to it more directly. Not sure if they penalize him for portability based on this or not--my guess would be no. For me the real issue was having to leave Dallas was a very big motivator for Nash to change his whole approach to his lifestyle, diet, and workout routines. Would he have done so anyway in Dallas? My guess again would be no because Dirk who enjoyed the nightlife to a degree with Nash was already legendary for how he hard he worked even during the season going so far as to find gyms to go shoot at every night they were on the road. Nash never went with him, never asked to work with Holger.

But I will say Nellie goes nowhere if Nash resigns because it was Cuban letting Nash walk that directly led to his exit from the scene. That and signing Erick Dampier(tho this never happens if Nash stays). Avery was clearly having his voice heard(again see Erick Dampier), but I doubt he walks away from the chance to coach a team with both Nash and Dirk in their primes.

And of course if Nellie stays an even more important question becomes does Dirk ever take that final step from superstar to MVP-level player?

Like was mentioned by Owly I would have killed to see them stay together in Dallas, but I'd say both of them ultimately benefited by splitting apart.

[Texas Chuck]

Oh and my vote once again is for Mikan

Most dominant player left on the board.

I don't have a bias against earlier eras. Fine if you say its weak. If its weak then a top 24 player should dominate and he did exactly that. Plus his play against blacks gets rid to the stupid racist argument being made against him.

Great scorer, best defender of his era.

Rules changed specifically to try and limit his impact.

He's tough to judge, but guys being lazy and not wanting to put in some thought to him is no reason to hold him out.

[Moonbeam]

Moonbeam, I It’s my fault, by the time I asked consensus about it, people were tired of talking about rules and basically just said, NAH, JUST NBA. So, we are not using pre-NBA years.

No problem! Thanks for letting me know. I wish we could consider his 1948-49 season, though!

Given this, I'm going to have to vote for Steve Nash in the runoff. I love Nash a lot, but I'm not fully convinced that his incredible offensive impact can't be at least somewhat attributed to the coaches he had in Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni. That doesn't take away from his amazing skills as a point guard, and he was the best point guard either of those coaches had by far. Mikan was no offensive slouch himself, though I'd give Nash a definite edge on overall offensive impact. On defense, though, Mikan's advantage is far bigger. Take a look at the defensive win shares leaders in 1952 - the top 4 are all Lakers, with Mikan leading the pack! I think Mikan is clearly the most dominant player left, but stripping away one of his mega-dominant years is enough to give Nash an edge based on longevity. It's still pretty close, though - I don't see myself placing Mikan below too many others aside from Frazier and Stockton.