Start a franchise: Dirk or Pippen/Gasol?

Post #21 » by **Texas Chuck** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 1:55 pm

luke makes a great point about Dirk costing 1/2 as much against the cap which I think is a big enough factor that you simply have to take him especially under this CBA where even the big spending clubs are trying desperately to avoid the luxury tax.

If we do like we do here tho and ignore these very important realities it gets much much closer. Im higher on all three guys than the PC board as a whole is. I usually take the best player in these scenarios especially when the best guy is this clear cut, but Pau and Pippen is a pretty slick pairing. I'd probably still take Dirk, but I wouldn't complain at all if my franchise got the other 2 guys.

Black Feet · Post #22 » by **Black Feet** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 3:39 pm

This really isn't close, it's obviously Pau/Pippen. I don't see any argument for Dirk, he's not that much better than Pau that the greatest perimeter defender doesn't make up for. Pau/Pippen are getting greatly underrated.

Post #23 » by **nate33** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 5:15 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:Is that really a contender though? To me it screams 50+ wins tough second round and out team with one year making the WCF if everything broke right.

I reworded my original post. I agree with you that the team I posted is a 50-win team that's not quite good enough to win it all, but they'd be a tough out every year. But that's with just Pippen, Gasol and easily-available role players. If you get them just one more legit, above-average starter (particularly if it's a PG), then they're contenders.

Masigond · Post #24 » by **Masigond** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 5:37 pm

nate33 wrote:I reworded my original post. I agree with you that the team I posted is a 50-win team that's not quite good enough to win it all, but they'd be a tough out every year. But that's with just Pippen, Gasol and easily-available role players. If you get them just one more legit, above-average starter (particularly if it's a PG), then they're contenders.

Quite comparable to Dirk: With so-so teammates, you got yourself a playoffs team. To win a title you need either a legit second-option player (better than what Terry brought to them) or a deep well-assembled team that's playing the postseason of its life (like in 2011). That doesn't diminish what Dirk has done in those years - he obviously was the player who made it all happen. Without him on the court, the Mavs 2011 were barely a playoffs team. With him they were firing on all cylinders. But as good as he is: Without help even he's not enough to overcome good teams: The Nuggets 2009 weren't great, as neither were the Spurs 2010. But those teams were better than the Mavs as Dirk's teammates didn't produce: Terry was shooting on atrocious percentages both years, Kidd was bad in 2010, they never had any player scoring in the post other than Dirk (Haywood and Dampier combined for 7 ppg in 2009...), and Dirk is rather a mid-range player than a guy working in the post anyway. This team is destined to live and die by their jumpshots. Most of those years, they died. In 2011, they hit.

That's why I think that you can build around Pippen and Gasol at least as well. Having two max contracts makes it harder, true, but Dirk needs quality player as well, and there's not much of a difference in the difficulty of building a true contender around him. A guy like Terry got 8-11 mil per year (and you'll want a better teammate as a second option than him), and the good defensive center will cost you at least the same. So you'll be at 40-45 mil with those three players as well, and they aren't necessarily better than Pippen + Gasol + X. Let's not forget that the Mavs were one of the highest paying teams for a decade, and the only way to get the right players was by trade or by letting players like Nash go. The 2011 roster was rather old, and while they may arguably have contended for another year, it's rather unlikely that they would have won another title. So assembling a team like in 2011 is no long-term plan, and you'll have a lot of competition in your hunt for those old serviceable guys (as they will go to the Spurs or to LeBron at least as likely).
And unfortunately Dirk isn't the guy who helps you land the top echelon of free agents (like Howard, Paul, Deron Williams and all those players the Mavs went for futilely in the last years).

BmanInBigD · Post #25 » by **BmanInBigD** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 5:46 pm

Black Feet wrote:This really isn't close, it's obviously Pau/Pippen. I don't see any argument for Dirk, he's not that much better than Pau that the greatest perimeter defender doesn't make up for. Pau/Pippen are getting greatly underrated.

Actually, he's quite a bit better than Pau. And with Dirk you don't have 2 guys requiring max salaries, surely you can find someone cheaper than Pippen to defend the perimeter? Pip and Pau didn't do that much without much better players than both of them leading their team.

Black Feet · Post #26 » by **Black Feet** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 6:07 pm

BmanInBigD wrote:
Black Feet wrote:This really isn't close, it's obviously Pau/Pippen. I don't see any argument for Dirk, he's not that much better than Pau that the greatest perimeter defender doesn't make up for. Pau/Pippen are getting greatly underrated.

Actually, he's quite a bit better than Pau. And with Dirk you don't have 2 guys requiring max salaries, surely you can find someone cheaper than Pippen to defend the perimeter? Pip and Pau didn't do that much without much better players than both of them leading their team.

Well of course you could get someone cheaper than Pippen but he wouldn't be anywhere near the caliber player he is. The salary argument is dumb, Dirk had Nash and couldn't get it done. Took him a long time to win a championship, I would be much much more confident in Pau/Pippen winning a lot more than Dirk.

Perkele · Post #27 » by **Perkele** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 7:49 pm

Black Feet wrote:
BmanInBigD wrote:
Black Feet wrote:This really isn't close, it's obviously Pau/Pippen. I don't see any argument for Dirk, he's not that much better than Pau that the greatest perimeter defender doesn't make up for. Pau/Pippen are getting greatly underrated.

Actually, he's quite a bit better than Pau. And with Dirk you don't have 2 guys requiring max salaries, surely you can find someone cheaper than Pippen to defend the perimeter? Pip and Pau didn't do that much without much better players than both of them leading their team.

Well of course you could get someone cheaper than Pippen but he wouldn't be anywhere near the caliber player he is. The salary argument is dumb, Dirk had Nash and couldn't get it done. Took him a long time to win a championship, I would be much much more confident in Pau/Pippen winning a lot more than Dirk.

That argument is even dumber. Nash wasn't anywhere close the player in Dallas than he was in Phoenix.

Colbinii · Post #28 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 8:03 pm

Perkele wrote:
That argument is even dumber. Nash wasn't anywhere close the player in Dallas than he was in Phoenix.

Steve Nash's numbers per 100 possessions.
01-04: 25-12-5, 4 TOV, .590 TS%, 21 PER, 118 O rating, .176 WS/48
05-10: 25-16-5, 5 TOV, .628 TS%, 22 PER, 121 O rating, .191 WS/48

Credit goes to Colts.

HornetJail · Post #29 » by **HornetJail** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 8:41 pm

Two franchise players instead of one? Sign me up!

BmanInBigD · Post #30 » by **BmanInBigD** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 9:43 pm

Black Feet wrote:
BmanInBigD wrote:
Black Feet wrote:This really isn't close, it's obviously Pau/Pippen. I don't see any argument for Dirk, he's not that much better than Pau that the greatest perimeter defender doesn't make up for. Pau/Pippen are getting greatly underrated.

Actually, he's quite a bit better than Pau. And with Dirk you don't have 2 guys requiring max salaries, surely you can find someone cheaper than Pippen to defend the perimeter? Pip and Pau didn't do that much without much better players than both of them leading their team.

Well of course you could get someone cheaper than Pippen but he wouldn't be anywhere near the caliber player he is. The salary argument is dumb, Dirk had Nash and couldn't get it done. Took him a long time to win a championship, I would be much much more confident in Pau/Pippen winning a lot more than Dirk.

And then Dirk DIDN'T have Nash, or anyone of his caliber, and DID win. May have taken him a long time, but he did it with a finally-appropriate cast around him. The other 2 guys needed MUCH better players than them to win. Which they won't have if they're on the same team. You win rings because of your best player, not your 2 best players. You're better off with a Top-15 all-time player with a carefully crafted team around him than with a couple of Top-30-40 or so type players IMO.

Black Feet · Post #31 » by **Black Feet** » Mon Sep 1, 2014 10:39 pm

^^well they didn't have much of an opportunity since they both played most of their prime with Kobe/MJ. Pippen lead his team to a solid run without Jordan and Pau didn't have anyone near Pippens caliber before he joined Kobe. Those two players will cover a lot of what a team needs from Defense to offense and playmaking, with Dirk you just get a solid offensive player but big holes in Defense, and Playmaking.

CrazyB0y · Post #32 » by **CrazyB0y** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 7:47 am

you'd still have to find a transcendent superstar to pair him with Pippen/Gasol if you go that route. e.g. a Jordan, Dirk or Kobe

Dirk is already that, so you obviously pick him.

Post #33 » by **nate33** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 1:34 pm

CrazyB0y wrote:you'd still have to find a transcendent superstar to pair him with Pippen/Gasol if you go that route. e.g. a Jordan, Dirk or Kobe

Dirk is already that, so you obviously pick him.

Peak Pippen isn't quite as good as peak Kobe, but he's pretty close. If Kobe + Gasol gets you 2 titles, then Pippen + Gasol gets you to the WCF's a few times. All they need is another above average starter and they're contenders. They don't need another superstar, just a rock solid player - a Mike Conley type of guy would be good enough.

Post #34 » by **Texas Chuck** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 2:11 pm

Masigond wrote:That doesn't diminish what Dirk has done in those years - he obviously was the player who made it all happen. Without him on the court, the Mavs 2011 were barely a playoffs team. With him they were firing on all cylinders. and Dirk is rather a mid-range player than a guy working in the post anyway. .

The 2011 Mavs were 2-7 without Dirk and 0-2 in the first 2 games when he rushed back trying to stem the tide. They weren't barely a playoff team without him. They were very clearly a lotto team without him.

Dirk is a great mid-range player, but it seems impossible to be unaware of how much time Dirk spends in the post---especially in the PS.

Ballerhogger · Post #35 » by **Ballerhogger** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 3:14 pm

nate33 wrote:
CrazyB0y wrote:you'd still have to find a transcendent superstar to pair him with Pippen/Gasol if you go that route. e.g. a Jordan, Dirk or Kobe

Dirk is already that, so you obviously pick him.

Peak Pippen isn't quite as good as peak Kobe, but he's pretty close. If Kobe + Gasol gets you 2 titles, then Pippen + Gasol gets you to the WCF's a few times. All they need is another above average starter and they're contenders. They don't need another superstar, just a rock solid player - a Mike Conley type of guy would be good enough.

How is peak Pippin close to Kobe peak? Pippen was never the scorer Kobe was at both of their peaks. Kobe was just as good or better defender the pippin was.. Pippen would have not lead a 05-06 type of lakers to the playoffs. He also would have not been enough offensively to repeat back to back. Pippen is great player no doubt though.

Post #36 » by **nate33** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 4:38 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:How is peak Pippin close to Kobe peak? Pippen was never the scorer Kobe was at both of their peaks. Kobe was just as good or better defender the pippin was.. Pippen would have not lead a 05-06 type of lakers to the playoffs. He also would have not been enough offensively to repeat back to back. Pippen is great player no doubt though.

Ridiculous. Kobe was absolutely not "as good or better defender than Pippen". Pippen is on everybody's short list as the best perimeter defender in NBA history. Kobe was merely a good defender who played great defense in very short spurts during limited portions of his career.

Most place Kobe somewhere around 14th among all time great players. And to a small degree his ranking is enhanced by his extreme longevity. Pippen falls around 25th without any extraordinary longevity. Therefore, the respective peaks are probably a bit closer. I stand by the statement that peak Pippen was "pretty close" to as good as peak Kobe. Sure, Kobe gets an edge, but let's not make it sound like we're comparing a HOFer versus some borderline all star player. Pippen was legit.

Masigond · Post #37 » by **Masigond** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 4:53 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:How is peak Pippin close to Kobe peak? Pippen was never the scorer Kobe was at both of their peaks. Kobe was just as good or better defender the pippin was.. Pippen would have not lead a 05-06 type of lakers to the playoffs. He also would have not been enough offensively to repeat back to back. Pippen is great player no doubt though.

You forgot the green font.

Pippen is both the better (more natural) playmaker for his teammates as the better defender. The latter at least as he was giving consistent effort on that end of the court, and IMO also in terms of ability, as he was as athletic as Kobe, but taller with way longer arms. Kobe played defense for a couple of years (a decade ago! and in spurts like nate33 said before), and even then the task of defending the best opponent perimeter player was often given to guys like Fox (if the opponent player was a SG/SF) or Fisher (if PG/SG). On the Bulls Pippen was the guy who relieved Jordan of that duty very often.

Ballerhogger · Post #38 » by **Ballerhogger** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 6:28 pm

nate33 wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:How is peak Pippin close to Kobe peak? Pippen was never the scorer Kobe was at both of their peaks. Kobe was just as good or better defender the pippin was.. Pippen would have not lead a 05-06 type of lakers to the playoffs. He also would have not been enough offensively to repeat back to back. Pippen is great player no doubt though.

Ridiculous. Kobe was absolutely not "as good or better defender than Pippen". Pippen is on everybody's short list as the best perimeter defender in NBA history. Kobe was merely a good defender who played great defense in very short spurts during limited portions of his career.

Most place Kobe somewhere around 14th among all time great players. And to a small degree his ranking is enhanced by his extreme longevity. Pippen falls around 25th without any extraordinary longevity. Therefore, the respective peaks are probably a bit closer. I stand by the statement that peak Pippen was "pretty close" to as good as peak Kobe. Sure, Kobe gets an edge, but let's not make it sound like we're comparing a HOFer versus some borderline all star player. Pippen was legit.

Eh... Most place KG over Kobe around here too... so...
Kobe was merely a good defender for a short period time.. 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2000, 2003–2004, 2006–2011)

Thats a short period of time? Good defenders like Wade and etc don't even have 1st first team defensives.

Basketballefan · Post #39 » by **Basketballefan** » Tue Sep 2, 2014 11:32 pm

BizGilwalker wrote:Two franchise players instead of one? Sign me up!

Since when are Pippen and Gasol franchise players? Definitely not Gasol.

magicmerl · Post #40 » by **magicmerl** » Wed Sep 3, 2014 12:19 am

I think I'd go with Dirk, even though Pippen/Gasol together give you more on the court.

The thing is, neither option makes you the driver for a ring, meaning you need more talented pieces aroudn them. And the more spread out your talent is, the harder it is for you to sustain ongoing championship aspirations, as free-agency gets in the way.

Case in point, look at the Wallace pistons. They were a great combination of talented players, who all eventually got overpaid and stopped the team from contending.

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