Biggest mistake/omission on RealGM 2014 GOAT List (top 30)?

[Doctor MJ]

Guys in my Top 30, not included in List's Top 30:
Chris Paul, Reggie Miller, Jason Kidd

Guys in List's Top 30, not include in my Top 30:
George Mikan, John Havlicek, Walt Frazier

Guy on list who with biggest gap between my list and List's list (while still being on both):
Wilt Chamberalin, I have him much lower.

Interesting, you seem to be putting a heavy emphasis on peak which is cool. I'd take Havlicek over Miller but I see the case for Paul. Frazier vs. Kidd is a fun debate, I've always thought both are underrated historically but I think I'd give the edge to Frazier because of his ability to balance scoring in the half court with running the team. Still Kidd is one of the best transition guards to ever do it and both have cases for GOAT defender as well. In terms of their careers Kidd changed his style of play when he got older which is rare (and he did it effectively) while Frazier was a top 2 option on a championship team. Mikan is impossible for me to rank really, it's all relative to how you value era dominance and portability.

I don't know about peak vs longevity given that I'm talking up Miller & Kidd and calling Mikan, Frazier & Wilt overrated as career candidates. Would be cool if I could just chalk it up to philosophical differences, but I don't know about that.

Glad you can see some value in the thought I've put into things though.

[penbeast0]

Duncan too high.

LeBron too high.

Magic too low.

Kobe too low.

KG too high. (WTF?)

Oscar too high.

Barkley too low.

So, some players who were poor defenders are too low and some who were pushed up based on, among other things, defensive impact are too high. At least you are consistent.

[BlackIce]

Guys in my Top 30, not included in List's Top 30:
Chris Paul, Reggie Miller, Jason Kidd

Guys in List's Top 30, not include in my Top 30:
George Mikan, John Havlicek, Walt Frazier

Guy on list who with biggest gap between my list and List's list (while still being on both):
Wilt Chamberalin, I have him much lower.

Interesting, you seem to be putting a heavy emphasis on peak which is cool. I'd take Havlicek over Miller but I see the case for Paul. Frazier vs. Kidd is a fun debate, I've always thought both are underrated historically but I think I'd give the edge to Frazier because of his ability to balance scoring in the half court with running the team. Still Kidd is one of the best transition guards to ever do it and both have cases for GOAT defender as well. In terms of their careers Kidd changed his style of play when he got older which is rare (and he did it effectively) while Frazier was a top 2 option on a championship team. Mikan is impossible for me to rank really, it's all relative to how you value era dominance and portability.

I don't know about peak vs longevity given that I'm talking up Miller & Kidd and calling Mikan, Frazier & Wilt overrated as career candidates. Would be cool if I could just chalk it up to philosophical differences, but I don't know about that.

Glad you can see some value in the thought I've put into things though.

I was talking about Paul, sorry I shouldn't been more clear. Paul in New Orleans was the sickest point guard I've ever seen, I remember that series against LAL and though he was the only player in the world on par with Lebron at the time. In general I'm curious why you had Kidd over Frazier though, not set in my mindset regarding them and I haven't seen a ton of Frazier outside of what's available on youtube and the like.

[giordunk]

I don't get the point of arguing Mikan. How many of us were alive? It's almost like trying to argue the existence of Jesus Christ.

[DavidSterned]

Lots of recency bias, IMO. The three that stand out the most being

Duncan at #5 over Shaq, Magic, Bird is suspect
KG at #11 over Kobe!?
Nash at #25, and over Stockton/Frazier/Payton

How is KG over Kobe recency bias?

KG at 11th is the recency bias. The fact that he is even ranked over Kobe just shows how puzzling a ranking it actually is. He's also rather bizarrely ranked over Oscar, Karl Malone, Jerry West, Julius Erving, and a few others.

[Ballerhogger]

Duncan too high.

LeBron too high.

Magic too low.

Kobe too low.

KG too high. (WTF?)

Oscar too high.

Barkley too low.

So, some players who were poor defenders are too low and some who were pushed up based on, among other things, defensive impact are too high. At least you are consistent.

Who is a poor defender on this list?

[Okada]

My issue with that attitude is that it's basically slapping around the people actually putting in the effort you were unwilling to do. Any time someone is essentially lazy and self-righteous at the same time, they don't really have any credibility. They've ceded their direct influence on the product in question, and lost any credence they'd have otherwise had when giving criticism of the people trying their best to do something cool.

I perfectly understand priorities in life. I'd never knock someone for not being apart of the project alone, and certainly you have a right to say where you disagree with it. It's just the attitude makes you look so small.

That's completely fair. I do have a tendency to be that way. I don't really have the time or drive to argue those things, but I'm confident in my opinions on the matter. But yeah, you're right.

[SlobbaN]

KG and Erving way too high, Wade too low. Also no Baylor in Top30 is absurd as someone mentioned before.

[Quotatious]

KG and Erving way too high

Why is Dr. J way too high? Do you only take his NBA career into account?

[penbeast0]

Duncan too high.

LeBron too high.

Magic too low.

Kobe too low.

KG too high. (WTF?)

Oscar too high.

Barkley too low.

So, some players who were poor defenders are too low and some who were pushed up based on, among other things, defensive impact are too high. At least you are consistent.

Who is a poor defender on this list?

Kobe's defense has slipped badly since his younger days (though he continues to get All-D votes for some reason) and he was never the level of defender of a Duncan, KG, or even LeBron to use his peers.

Magic was a poor man defender, decent help defender but overall below average.

Barkley was just plain manure on the defensive end. He's one of the worst big man defenders to play in the NBA -- undersized, poor instincts, and just plain didn't work at that end with consistency.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't get the point of arguing Mikan. How many of us were alive? It's almost like trying to argue the existence of Jesus Christ.

so nothing that happened before you were born is real? Or of any relevance?

Can you expound on this maybe? Because on the surface that sounds ridiculous. And where do you draw the line? Many of the guys here college-aged. Should they not get to talk about Magic or Bird or Kareem?

[Pg81]

KG is too high for me personally.

[G35]

I don't get the point of arguing Mikan. How many of us were alive? It's almost like trying to argue the existence of Jesus Christ.

so nothing that happened before you were born is real? Or of any relevance?

Can you expound on this maybe? Because on the surface that sounds ridiculous. And where do you draw the line? Many of the guys here college-aged. Should they not get to talk about Magic or Bird or Kareem?

I can see his point, from the point of view here on the PC board where it gets into the minutiae, and layer after layer after layer trying to argue the finer points of a player. The only way you can intelligently (at least for me) is if you can apply the eye test along with statistics. If you don't have the eye test to balance everything out, that's when things get skewed one way or the other......

[Texas Chuck]

All this thread tells me is that people just like to bitch.

[BmanInBigD]

All this thread tells me is that people just like to bitch.

That was kind of the point of the thread, wasn't it?

"Biggest mistake/omission...."

[Doctor MJ]

I was talking about Paul, sorry I shouldn't been more clear. Paul in New Orleans was the sickest point guard I've ever seen, I remember that series against LAL and though he was the only player in the world on par with Lebron at the time. In general I'm curious why you had Kidd over Frazier though, not set in my mindset regarding them and I haven't seen a ton of Frazier outside of what's available on youtube and the like.

Actually it's the longevity, which I know seems weird and shows how tough this all is.

[giordunk]

I don't get the point of arguing Mikan. How many of us were alive? It's almost like trying to argue the existence of Jesus Christ.

so nothing that happened before you were born is real? Or of any relevance?

Can you expound on this maybe? Because on the surface that sounds ridiculous. And where do you draw the line? Many of the guys here college-aged. Should they not get to talk about Magic or Bird or Kareem?

I can see his point, from the point of view here on the PC board where it gets into the minutiae, and layer after layer after layer trying to argue the finer points of a player. The only way you can intelligently (at least for me) is if you can apply the eye test along with statistics. If you don't have the eye test to balance everything out, that's when things get skewed one way or the other......

To compare George Mikan to Jesus (lol) all it really comes down to is fate in the end. The fact is all we have of George Mikan is a couple of fuzzy YouTube clips of incomplete games. Any attempt at standardizing his stats to a modern standard is really just a shot in the dark. Any other opinion is purely based on which Mikan anecdote or story you decided to read, and then at that point we're just arguing who read a better George Mikan story.

I mean discussion is good, but Mikan is so obscure that in the end I think it's best to just respect someone's opinion/ranking on Mikan because there isn't really a ground for argument. An atheist and a Christian can debate Jesus/God's existent but in the end it just comes down to a matter of faith.

[Louie_Ruckuz]

DUNCAN AT #5? LOL AND KOBE AT #13? WOW!!!!!!!!!!

I HOPE THIS IS AN EARLY APRIL FOOLS JOKE....IF NOT I WILL BE WAITING FOR ASHTON KUTCHER TO COME OUT AND SAY I'VE BEN PUNK'D BECAUSE THIS IS UNREAL.

[Laimbeer]

KG is too high for me personally.

This is the real WTF moment, and no Baylor is right up there as well.

[Joao Saraiva]

DUNCAN AT #5? LOL AND KOBE AT #13? WOW!!!!!!!!!!

I HOPE THIS IS AN EARLY APRIL FOOLS JOKE....IF NOT I WILL BE WAITING FOR ASHTON KUTCHER TO COME OUT AND SAY I'VE BEN PUNK'D BECAUSE THIS IS UNREAL.

So... where should Kobe ranked and what players are above him?