Re: RealGM Top 100 List #39

[penbeast0]

I assume Chuck T. is going to vote Mutombo, though I don't see that he has done so as of yet.

I'm torn between Deke and Cowens actually. Cowens has some longevity concerns but we have a guy who was the best player on 2 champions, an MVP, and was a top 5 player for 5 years+. I'm having trouble deciding if Deke's defensive impact is enough for me to rank him above possibly the best franchise player type left on the board.

Cowens was also an undersized and inefficient scorer; I don't think his defensive impact is high enough to justify his being placed over Dwight Howard although his passing and spread the floor midrange shooting might be enough to place him over Mutombo if you value those things. He was a terrific energy guy though; never let up.

[penbeast0]

OK, going to start the runoff between Isiah and Pierce. Leaning Isiah a bit for his playoff heroics and more consistent defensive effort (though Pierce has a physical advantage there) but willing to be convinced.

[Clyde Frazier]

[penbeast0]

See, with the Afro, Julius is the same height, lol.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote - Isiah Thomas

Kinda surprised he's not in yet, seems like he's been picking up a lot of votes for the last few rounds but never quite getting there.

Needs reasoning

You need to give a reason for your vote to count.

[DQuinn1575]

Isiah Thomas (6 (7)) - ronnymac2, Basketballefan, Quotatious, Warspite, Clyde Frazier, drza, (lukeharts---needs reasoning to be official)

Paul Pierce (3) - trex_8063, SactoKingsFan, Owly

Sam Jones (1) - DQuinn1575

Dikembe Mutombo (1) - Jaivl

Reggie Miller (2) - Doctor MJ, John248

Dwight Howard (1) - penbeast0

Updated thru post #80, and I believe we've crossed the 48-hr mark.

We've got pierce mutombo and miller who were never in the top 5 of mvp voting or 1st team all-pro.

And it's not like they were close a lot of years or won a few titles.

They all have a single year of top 10 maybe.


It's seems like longevity is heavily rewarded; almost to the point if you hang around long enough you have a chance to win a title.




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[Owly]

...

I'm not going to try and anchor Isiah's ranking to Tim Hardaway's but RS wise it's a better (or not so bad) comparison. I am tempted to say (as ever) that it shouldn't be too far off Gus Williams' though.

If you are going to, make sure you also do playoff since that's Isiah's best argument.

Assuming this is in re: Hardaway. As stated it's a better RS (exclusively) comparison than Paul (hence why I wouldn't). Gus Williams provides a better combined RS and playoff comp (hence why I would).

Though as per my points above the gap Paul manages, even in playoffs 25 PER, .189 WS to Isiah's 19.8 and .143 - and that's with DWS being very generous with Isiah's defensive contribution - is the same as that Isiah would hold over a league average player.

So whilst I wouldn't have Hardaway as a "should be close to ..." guy with Isiah, I'm not sure that even factoring in Hardaway's terrible post prime playoffs, and overall mediocre to poor playoff career, he isn't a better one than Paul.

All of which is moot, because as I said he isn't the most comparable guy. Gus Williams (so far as I can see) is.

[Owly]

Isiah Thomas (6 (7)) - ronnymac2, Basketballefan, Quotatious, Warspite, Clyde Frazier, drza, (lukeharts---needs reasoning to be official)

Paul Pierce (3) - trex_8063, SactoKingsFan, Owly

Sam Jones (1) - DQuinn1575

Dikembe Mutombo (1) - Jaivl

Reggie Miller (2) - Doctor MJ, John248

Dwight Howard (1) - penbeast0

Updated thru post #80, and I believe we've crossed the 48-hr mark.

We've got pierce mutombo and miller who were never in the top 5 of mvp voting or 1st team all-pro.

And it's not like they were close a lot of years or won a few titles.

They all have a single year of top 10 maybe.


It's seems like longevity is heavily rewarded; almost to the point if you hang around long enough you have a chance to win a title.

In terms of 1st team all-NBA competition at position matters quite a bit. Mutombo was facing Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing (and Mourning); Miller facing MJ (and Stockton, Payton, Magic etc).

As for top 5 MVPers (or indeed top 5 players in the league, which might be different), I suspect that most of those that did that more than a couple of times at the fringes, are already in or else have serious longevity concerns (perhaps combined with unremarkable metrics), or have era concerns (Schayes has a close 2nd in '58, 5th in '57 and would have had serious consideration earlier had the award existed earlier).

[penbeast0]

...

I'm not going to try and anchor Isiah's ranking to Tim Hardaway's but RS wise it's a better (or not so bad) comparison. I am tempted to say (as ever) that it shouldn't be too far off Gus Williams' though.

If you are going to, make sure you also do playoff since that's Isiah's best argument.

Assuming this is in re: Hardaway. As stated it's a better RS (exclusively) comparison than Paul (hence why I wouldn't). Gus Williams provides a better combined RS and playoff comp (hence why I would).

Though as per my points above the gap Paul manages, even in playoffs 25 PER, .189 WS to Isiah's 19.8 and .143 - and that's with DWS being very generous with Isiah's defensive contribution - is the same as that Isiah would hold over a league average player.

So whilst I wouldn't have Hardaway as a "should be close to ..." guy with Isiah, I'm not sure that even factoring in Hardaway's terrible post prime playoffs, and overall mediocre to poor playoff career, he isn't a better one than Paul.

All of which is moot, because as I said he isn't the most comparable guy. Gus Williams (so far as I can see) is.

Would you put Gus over Isiah? How about the short peak guys like Penny, Tiny, and the Squid?

[Basketballefan]

A huge edge in terms of playmaking? He's a point guard! He also has a huge lead in turning the ball over and not getting rebounds. I wouldn't ordinarily mention at least the latter because it is to be expected, if that's where we're going ...

Yeah he's a point guard, but that don't mean you can discredit his playmaking, Thomas' 8-12 assists are more valuable than Wilkins' 6-7 boards.

The defensive gap is small too.

Was it? Idk Wilkins was a pretty garbage defender, Thomas certainly geld his own.

So in terms of longevity of quality seasons, Nique's longevity edge is substantial.

I wouldn't call it substantial, Thomas had 11 quality/all star caliber seasons, while Wilkins had about 13.

And for what it's worth his stats peak is clearly ahead too.

I thing this is just wrong.

Wilkins peak 31 6 3 53 ts% or if you want to use 86' there isn't much difference.
Thomas 21 5 14 53 ts%
Thomas is generating a good bit more offense when you consider assists.

As to your playoff point, that should matter a good deal here, i personally put a lot of value into what players do in the playoffs.

[DQuinn1575]

[We've got pierce mutombo and miller who were never in the top 5 of mvp voting or 1st team all-pro.

And it's not like they were close a lot of years or won a few titles.

They all have a single year of top 10 maybe.


It's seems like longevity is heavily rewarded; almost to the point if you hang around long enough you have a chance to win a title.

In terms of 1st team all-NBA competition at position matters quite a bit. Mutombo was facing Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing (and Mourning); Miller facing MJ (and Stockton, Payton, Magic etc).

As for top 5 MVPers (or indeed top 5 players in the league, which might be different), I suspect that most of those that did that more than a couple of times at the fringes, are already in or else have serious longevity concerns (perhaps combined with unremarkable metrics), or have era concerns (Schayes has a close 2nd in '58, 5th in '57 and would have had serious consideration earlier had the award existed earlier).

I use mvp top 5 OR All-Pro to not penalize guys at a premium position.
I also use mvp top 10 or 2nd team All-Pro.

Obviously awards aren't perfect - but they are guidelines.

So, PIERCE WAS TOP 10 ONCE, MUTOMBO ONCE, MILLER NEVER

These guys:

Top 5 Top 10

Allen Iverson 3 7
Tracy McGrady 2 7
Dwight Howard 5 6
Elvin Hayes 4 6
Tiny Archibald 4 6
Dave Cowens 4 5
D Wilkins 3 5
Isiah Thomas 3 5
Jerry Lucas 3 5
Willis Reed 3 5
B Cunningham 3 4
Bob McAdoo 3 4
Paul Westphal 3 4
Dave Bing 2 4
Pete Maravich 2 4
Sam Jones 2 4
Spencer Haywood 2 4


All have at least 4 seasons judged at the time as good as Pierce's or Mutombo's best, and at least 2 seasons better than their best.
Longevity is an issue for some, and awards aren't everything, but to pick Pierce, Reggie, etc. is to ignore guys who really had an
impact on the league like Iverson, Cowens, Isiah, etc.

[Notanoob]

I'll go ahead an cast my runoff vote for Isiah Thomas. Inefficient, sure. TO prone, yes. Overrated outside of this board, for sure. But I'm convinced that he was a better player than Paul Pierce. I really always felt that Pierce was a tad bit overrated despite being a well rounded player (and an integral piece to my All-Time Fantasy team).

[Moonbeam]

I've been super busy so have missed a few votes, but I can't complain about who was selected.

This is a particularly tough choice - Pierce and Isiah both have lots of memorable playoff moments, and both were probably at their best before they had their greatest team success. Growing up as a Piston fan, Zeke did have an air of awe about him, and his speedy, gutsy play was electric. Winning two titles did indeed seem to absolve him of any criticism from before (I believe ThaRegul8r posted some good quotes about this), and those criticisms were legitimate. For example, great as he was in moments of the 1988 playoffs, his tendency to dial his own number may have cost Detroit a title. However, I feel that such legitimate criticisms have become more acknowledged, and I wouldn't want to undersell how dynamic and electric he was. Zeke was the heart of those Piston teams.

Pierce has had a longer career as a great player in his own right, with some early postseason success in the awful early 00s East mixed in with ho hum results due to poor management until the Big 3 era. His consistent goodness was the only thing keeping them from being a complete laughingstock for many years, and I don't want to penalize him too much for that. Once Garnett and Allen joined, he had no problems sharing the limelight and proved that his skillset could be useful on not only a championship team, but an all-time great team.

Ultimately, I'll give the edge to Paul Pierce by just a hair due to longevity. I'm probably a bit guilty of the ranking mechanism Elgee and Doctor MJ have identified in this respect, as there isn't much separating them aside from longevity in my mind.

[Moonbeam]

I use mvp top 5 OR All-Pro to not penalize guys at a premium position.
I also use mvp top 10 or 2nd team All-Pro.

Obviously awards aren't perfect - but they are guidelines.

So, PIERCE WAS TOP 10 ONCE, MUTOMBO ONCE, MILLER NEVER

These guys:

Top 5 Top 10

Allen Iverson 3 7
Tracy McGrady 2 7
Dwight Howard 5 6
Elvin Hayes 4 6
Tiny Archibald 4 6
Dave Cowens 4 5
D Wilkins 3 5
Isiah Thomas 3 5
Jerry Lucas 3 5
Willis Reed 3 5
B Cunningham 3 4
Bob McAdoo 3 4
Paul Westphal 3 4
Dave Bing 2 4
Pete Maravich 2 4
Sam Jones 2 4
Spencer Haywood 2 4


All have at least 4 seasons judged at the time as good as Pierce's or Mutombo's best, and at least 2 seasons better than their best.
Longevity is an issue for some, and awards aren't everything, but to pick Pierce, Reggie, etc. is to ignore guys who really had an
impact on the league like Iverson, Cowens, Isiah, etc.

Are these RPOY shares, or MVP shares? I see Isiah in the top 5 just once (#5 in 1984) and in the top 10 three other times (1985, 1986 and 1987).

[lukekarts]

Vote - Isiah Thomas

Kinda surprised he's not in yet, seems like he's been picking up a lot of votes for the last few rounds but never quite getting there.

Needs reasoning

You need to give a reason for your vote to count.

I feel like I'm rehashing old ground but ok.

He was arguably the best player on 3 championship teams (1 college). He did have a pretty tough run to the NBA titles (beating Jordan and Bird, Magic, Kareem & Drexler).

From a raw statistical point of view he wasn't that efficient and he had a lot of turnovers. But he scored a lot of points and dished out a lot of assists, played 35,000 minutes for his career, and had some big performances in title runs that justify his position on the list.

It's hard for me to vote for him because I really don't like him, but when he peaked as second best point guard and probably 3rd or 4th best player in the league in the mid-80s, he's more deserving of this spot than Pierce.

[john248]

Run-off vote is for Paul Pierce. He's a fairly complete offensive player who was a good example of being fundamentally sound; good range, post up, solid passer and rebounder for his position, and could defend. Wasn't the most explosive player but had good handles, footwork, body control, solid size...which made it seem like he was playing slow yet was very effective in what he did. Big reason why he's aged well. May have not come off as an incredibly dominant offensive player but still a legit #1 option type. Granted the east was weak, but he managed to lead a team to the ECF with Walker of all people. Had bad luck with Boston's management trading away young pieces and doing stupid things during his prime. When the big 3 formed though, he was able to adjust his game very well.

I do think highly of Isiah's 1st part of his career and 1990 later on. Scoring PG but his playmaking should be talked about more. But he didn't sustain that level of play over his career.

[DQuinn1575]

I use mvp top 5 OR All-Pro to not penalize guys at a premium position.
I also use mvp top 10 or 2nd team All-Pro.

Obviously awards aren't perfect - but they are guidelines.

So, PIERCE WAS TOP 10 ONCE, MUTOMBO ONCE, MILLER NEVER

These guys:

Top 5 Top 10

Allen Iverson 3 7
Tracy McGrady 2 7
Dwight Howard 5 6
Elvin Hayes 4 6
Tiny Archibald 4 6
Dave Cowens 4 5
D Wilkins 3 5
Isiah Thomas 3 5
Jerry Lucas 3 5
Willis Reed 3 5
B Cunningham 3 4
Bob McAdoo 3 4
Paul Westphal 3 4
Dave Bing 2 4
Pete Maravich 2 4
Sam Jones 2 4
Spencer Haywood 2 4


All have at least 4 seasons judged at the time as good as Pierce's or Mutombo's best, and at least 2 seasons better than their best.
Longevity is an issue for some, and awards aren't everything, but to pick Pierce, Reggie, etc. is to ignore guys who really had an
impact on the league like Iverson, Cowens, Isiah, etc.

Are these RPOY shares, or MVP shares? I see Isiah in the top 5 just once (#5 in 1984) and in the top 10 three other times (1985, 1986 and 1987).

I use mvp top 5 OR All-Pro to not penalize guys at a premium position. - I don't use the RPOY

[Texas Chuck]

I'd be careful using MVP or all-NBA teams as a measure. Especially for a guy like Deke who is never going to get serious consideration for what have become almost exclusively offensive honors. I find it extremely hard to believe that a guy who was a legit 4 time DPOY and strong contender for it in multiple other seasons was only once one of the 10 best players in the league.

I agree with your basis premise, but I think your method of determining the top 5 or top 10 is still flawed.

[penbeast0]

Isiah Thomas (8) - ronnymac2, Basketballefan, Quotatious, Warspite, Clyde Frazier, drza, lukekarts, Notanoob


Paul Pierce (8) - trex_8063, SactoKingsFan, Owly, Moonbeam

[DQuinn1575]

Isiah Thomas (8) - ronnymac2, Basketballefan, Quotatious, Warspite, Clyde Frazier, drza, lukekarts, Notanoob


Paul Pierce (8) - trex_8063, SactoKingsFan, Owly, Moonbeam

Does Pierce have 4 or 8?