john248 wrote:What you're saying isn't exactly true though. Wade developed into a good off-ball player during the time him and LeBron shared the court. He and the Heat had to find new ways for him to score which really meant utilizing his finishing ability. So after that 1st season together, we saw more plays where Wade would come up after a pin down near the elbow to drive in to the basket or hit a 15 footer. Also saw dribble penetration from LeBron while Wade cut in to again, take advantage of either player's finishing ability. Keep in mind that Wade is no 3 point shooter and no off-ball action/plays were called for him in this fashion. Off-ball movement isn't simply 3 point shooting as you're alluding to. Wade was a cutter and running off screens to either finish or take a mid range jumper. Were there times he had the ball in his hands? Of course. He's one of the best in this regard, so he's had plenty of time with the ball. James deserved it more, so Wade adjusted his game accordingly.
He did. But few expected him to. The two of them developed a very nice two-man game using their ballhandling, slashing and passing skills. Everyone expected them to pretty much "take turns", and as it turns out they found a way to create a synergy that didn't rely on one of them spotting up to shoot.
I think your point of Wade adapting to playing with James is valid, and does more to help my position than invalidate it. The same criticisms being levied at Kyrie's "redundancy" pale in comparison to the concerns people had about Wade, and aside from Kyrie's better shooting ability, I think it would be fair to grant Kyrie enough credit to assume he will, similarly, adapt to optimize his particular talents to playing with Lebron.
Not only that, but Lebron's experience with playing alongside another skilled ballhandler will likely see him being able to not only put himself in better position to take advantage of Kyrie breaking down the defense, but to offer him advice on how to do the same.
I don't think you're giving either player enough credit, as much as you think i'm giving them too much. But it'll be fun watching to see what happens, won't it?
There is no given in regards to Irving's off-ball play. Finishes at 58% at the rim though Wade is almost 70%. Getting back on track, it's easier to simply just look at Irving and note his playing style. His jumpers anywhere from the floor, though mostly long 2s and 3s, are pull-ups. Irving is not a pure shooter in any sense. I know you mentioned his 3 point contest, but that means absolutely nothing here. Are there times someone else creates or has to pass to him to shoot? Sure, but he's not really all that good at it even if he won a contest where he's picking up basketballs and shooting it with a timer. So in regards to this off-ball shooting, SportsVU has that on catch and shoots, Kyrie was at 35.6% overall and 32.1% for 3's. Keep in mind, he was 35.8% overall from 3. So this could mean spotting up or running around off-ball to receive then shoot. His spot up percentages are 38% overall and 33% from 3...again, was 35.8% from 3. On pull-up 3s, Kyrie was 40.9% which as we can now see, there's a huge gulf between how he is with the ball and without. This could be a mechanical issue or this could be how comfortable he is with a catch and shoot.
Good point, but the article you linked to made a point of analyzing why there might be a difference, and pinpointed two things. One was:
"If he is squared up, he is much more likely to hit his shots, which is pretty intuitive,
but more often than not he wasn't set because of a bad pass or an attempt of a rushed shot."
Which passes the logic test, since as the Cavs primary ballhandler it stands to reason many of his "spot-up" attempts would be rushed bail-out shots at the end of the shot clock. With Lebron and Love, it also stands to reason that he'll see an increase in spot-up attempts within the normal confines of the clock, with more time to measure the shot.
And the other was the difference in his shooting mechanics in the two scenarios. I'd be very surprised if that didn't improve given his natural shooting ability and the emphasis Cleveland's coaching staff will place on the roster practicing catching and shooting, considering pretty much everyone's volume on that particular shot will increase going forward.
When Trevor Ariza came to the Lakers, the coaching staff + Bryant were able to turn him into a decent long distance bomber with nothing but practice. If Shawn Marion can post a 38% eFG on catch and shoot 3's with terrible shot mechanics because he's worked at it, its reasonable to believe Irving can see a marked increase this year.
And we've only talked about Kyrie. Lebron is deadly from 3, spotting up and off the dribble. He's going to eat off Irving's dribble penetration too.
*I get your point about rim finishing. But consider that Kyrie's % at the rim(actually 60% for his career) comes at a 24% AST rate. Wade's high-60's finishing rate is better, but since Lebron joined the Heat he's been assisted on over twice as many baskets near the rim (49% AST), a large improvement from an average of around 32% AST pre-Lebron.
Its reasonable to assume Kyrie will also see a lift in rim FG% through Lebron's presence, and even if its not at quite the same rate as Wade, it will help.
So no, the issue of on-ball redundancy isn't overblown because we've seen both the Heat and Wade adjust. Part of this is also staggering their minutes which I also expect the Cavs to do with Irving and LeBron. Also simply saying "see Parker and Ginobili" isn't saying much. While both are able to initiate the offense the same way Irving and LBJ would, Irving is unproven as an off-ball player. And the stats I've shown above with him in that off-ball role is an indicator that Irving may very well struggle in this area. This also does a disservice to both Parker and Ginobili as to how good they are as off-ball players and why that Spurs offense is good to begin with where both are very good at what they do. Spurs run a lot of plays where either player will run high or low zipper cuts which puts a lot of pressure on defenses mainly because they are both good off-ball shooters and can receive the ball then penetrate.
*Disclaimer: Rant only somewhat directed at you
The word "redundancy" itself has taken on a connotation that is much more negative than it fundamentally demands. Both Lebron and Kyrie can handle the ball, pass, score, and shoot. 100% of NBA teams, if asked, would approve of their secondary backcourt players improving in each of those areas, and yet we're talking about it as if having more options on the perimeter is a bad thing. If Kyrie is replaced with a knockdown catch-and-shooter in the Damon Jones archetype, the redundancy issue is dissolved entirely, and yet the team would be far worse for it.
Any guard who handles the ball is going to pose at least some redundancy issue with Lebron, or any other high usage wing. My question is: so what?
In terms of problems teams would like to have, two star wing creators is much higher up the list than complementary but limited role player. Even if their production is affected by the others presence - and it will be, probably both good and bad - the tradeoffs in creating a more dynamic offense and eliminating the classic pitfall of having only one player capable of running the team are enormous.
Your comments about Irving being an unproven off-ball player are fine, but that's exactly the same thing people said about Wade. And yes, I acknowledge your comments about his adaptation to the offense but all that came after the fact. Unproven only means unknown, not confirmed.
re: Parker/Gino
As for Parker/Ginobili, Parker actually is not an impactful off-ball player. Even at 40%, his 1.5 total catch and shoot attempts per game are unconvincing of that title. The vast majority of his influence in-game is with the ball, as is Manu's, and my point is that, even with Parker as a weak outside shooter, their success is more evidence that redundancy can easily prove to be an asset instead of a liability when the players possess well-rounded skillsets and/or a modicum of basketball intelligence.
The Spurs run a motion offense, but there's a reason people were remarking that they've never seen this kind of basketball before the finals. Through the years, most of their sets have consisted of Tony or Manu dribbling, probing and attacking - the same things Lebron and Kyrie will be doing - with little visible detriment to each other. Anything is possible, so the Cavs could prove a disaster, but given history, the two players' skillsets, Lebron's experience, and the coaching emphasis on player motion....much more likely its a stunning success and at least one of them has a career year.
I'm betting it will be Irving. Fun to find out.
I've mentioned in a post in this thread that I think Kyrie will get 18 or so points and Love at 20. Kyrie will benefit from the decreased volume to get his percentages up. This was a problem over the years. At less volume and less focus on him, he'll get his opportunities.
If you're anticipating Kyrie getting 18ppg with higher efficiency - which doesn't sound crazy to me, for what its worth - what are we arguing about? If that's the extent of the redundancy issues he has with Lebron, who will get his own numbers regardless, seems like the Cavs have little to worry about.
What I don't see is Love reaching 20ppg. Not only from his diminished role, but because his minutes will probably be cut as a result of the Cavs lineup depth and the fact they'll be blowing teams out.
One thing I'm excited to see from Love, as a side note, will be his outlet passes to LBJ and Kyrie.
Full court alleyoop, anyone?
Yeah, realistically I guess that's a major time commitment. 
