Bird versus Lebron - higher GOAT?

[Basketballefan]

I don't agree that Lebron is "clearly better" as some are suggesting. He is the better player yes but i give Bird the slightest of an edge in all time ranks..he has similar accolades and a little bit more longevity, peak is Lebron but not by much. Lebron will pass him by the end of the season for me.

[Exodus]

Bird is better vs tough competition. His IQ is superior. HIs half court offense is much better. Larry enjoys and embraces the moment, when a Lebron shy's away from it. Larry is more of a killer. Larry Legend for me.

[GSP]

Lebron is better but i dont see their offense as all that close. Lebron may have similar assist/turnover numbers but hes kind of like Cp3 in that i think the numbers overrate the offensive impact he has. He meshes his scoring and playmaking very well, uses both to open up other parts of his game but he doesnt have the same feel/Iq for playmaking, positioning, offball movement etc. that a Bird or Magic had. They are on a different tier offensively to anyone else IMO. Bird and Magic could have some pedestrian boxscore numbers but in the actual game their offensive impact was massive, Lebron can do that too but the bulk of his offensive effectiveness comes from his scoring thats how he pressures a defense to a much higher degree

i see Lebrons prime closer to Kobe offensively than Magic/Bird but of course Lebron is one of the best and most versatile perimeter defenders ever.

[colts18]

I don't agree that Lebron is "clearly better" as some are suggesting. He is the better player yes but i give Bird the slightest of an edge in all time ranks..he has similar accolades and a little bit more longevity,

There is no longevity edge. Bird has played 781 more RS minutes than LeBron and just 169 more playoff minutes. By the end of this season LeBron will surpass him in both RS Minutes and Games and Postseason Minutes and games.

[Hornet Mania]

Longevity kills Bird in GOAT rankings, especially when it comes to the select few who match/surpass his level of play. I still have Bird ahead by a hair, but I expect that by this season's end the longevity edge Lebron will have + the expected solid playoff showing will tip the scales irreversibly in his favor. Had Bird remained healthy into the early 90s it would be a much more interesting question.

I will say this though, in Bird's defense. If I was picking an all-time team to play for my life I would have Larry Bird in my starting 5 not Lebron James. And it's not for any perceived "mental toughness" disadvantage, I feel like that is overblown with the lone exception being the 2011 Finals. Lebron James needs to have the ball in his hands at all times to really get it going, if you want to succeed with the King you have to play his style and revolve around him totally. On a GOAT team I'd much rather have Magic at the point with MJ and Bird on the wings just due to fit. LBJ would be a sick 2nd unit spark, surround him with shooters and post defenders and that team would crush.

[Quotatious]

Lebron is better but i dont see their offense as all that close. Lebron may have similar assist/turnover numbers but hes kind of like Cp3 in that i think the numbers overrate the offensive impact he has.

FWIW, LeBron's been absolutely elite in ORAPM since 2007. Among superstars, he was usually top 3 or 5. He's definitely one of the best offensive players ever (top 5-ish). Bird was naturally an outstanding off-ball player, but also possessed excellent skills with the ball in his hands, LeBron is the opposite - he's developed into a very good off-ball player, but his primary value comes from handling the ball a lot (especially in his younger days, a bit less nowadays). LeBron is definitely more of a point forward, if you will.

Bird's superior shooting ability, much better than LeBron's, combined with similar scoring and assists numbers, may give the impression that Larry is the better overall offensive player, but on the other hand, LeBron is a vastly superior option in terms of breaking down a tough defense off the dribble, because he's a superior ballhandler and way more athletic than Bird.

I'm not sure if Bird is even better on offense (he has a strong case, but I think they're very close, one way or the other), while LeBron's overall game is IMO clearly superior.

Even if we assume that peak offensive Bird was better (far from a sure thing though, at least for me), LeBron's definitely more consistent.

[rich316]

I don't have the time for this right now, but it would be really great to see a comprehensive comparison of Bird v. Lebron in the post. Lebron obviously added consistent posting up to his game later than Bird did, who had it from the beginning, but it would be cool to see them broken down systematically. My guess would be that Bird did a lot more creation for his teammates out of the post, while Lebron is a more efficient scorer. It's a bit of a mystery to me why Lebron doesn't seem to dish out of the post all that much - whenever he catches with good position he usually tries to score, which makes total sense, but I would expect his teams to try and create offense for others out of it. Hopefully we will see more of that in the later years of his career.

[GYK]

Lebron is the better player and greater player.

Bird is the second greatest SF of all time. Doc is right there at three.

[Colbinii]

Lebron is better but i dont see their offense as all that close. Lebron may have similar assist/turnover numbers but hes kind of like Cp3 in that i think the numbers overrate the offensive impact he has. He meshes his scoring and playmaking very well, uses both to open up other parts of his game but he doesnt have the same feel/Iq for playmaking, positioning, offball movement etc. that a Bird or Magic had. They are on a different tier offensively to anyone else IMO. Bird and Magic could have some pedestrian boxscore numbers but in the actual game their offensive impact was massive, Lebron can do that too but the bulk of his offensive effectiveness comes from his scoring thats how he pressures a defense to a much higher degree

i see Lebrons prime closer to Kobe offensively than Magic/Bird but of course Lebron is one of the best and most versatile perimeter defenders ever.

Care to expand on how Larry "Legend" is a much better offensive player with more impact, yet LeBron has lead teams with less to a better offense?

[Joao Saraiva]

LeBron vs Bird

Scoring
Seasons above 25 PPG RS/PS
LeBron 11/8 (only down in one regular season and one post-season)
Bird 4/4

Seasons above 60%ts
LeBron 4/3
Bird 2/2

Career numbers: RS/PS
PPG
LeBron 27.5 / 28
Bird 24.3/23.8

ts%
LeBron 58.1/57.8
Bird 56.4/55.1

Seems to me LeBron is the obvious better scorer.

Playmaking
Seasons above 7 APG
LeBron 6/4 (peaked at 8.6 in the regular season and 8 on his trip to the finals in 07)
Bird 3/3 (peaked at 8.8 in the playoffs but it was only in 5 games, however has a great run in 86 at 8.2)

The ast% also goes for LeBron, reaching above 30% several times while Bird never did it.

I'd say the gap is closer than in scoring, but I believe LeBron is the best playmaker between them. I wouldn't say there is no case for Bird being the better playmaker, there certainly is.

Rebounding:
Bird goes above 9 and 10 a lot of times in the regular season and even further in the post season. I think Bird is the best rebounder with bigger margin than LeBron is better than Bird on playmaking.

Defense
LeBron is the best defender. He was #2 for DPOY in 09 and 2012 at least. I think also 2013... The gap is big over Bird.

Advanced stats
Career PER
LeBron 27.7/27.7
Bird 23.5/21.4

Seasons above 25 PER
LeBron 9/5
Bird 4/1

Career WS/48
LeBron 24.2/24.2
Bird 20.3/17.3

WS/48 above 25
LeBron 5/4
Bird 0/1

The advanced stats suggest a big gap for LeBron.

Stats all suggest LeBron peaked higher and has already achieved better longevity than Larry Bird. That's what I think people are saying about being clear that LeBron is the superior player.

If LeBron or Bird could takeover... of course they could. They are two of the best players ever in the NBA. only people who haven't watched them enough or are biased against them could say otherwise.

[GYK]

Relative to league has to be a factor for anyone taking Birds range over Lebron. IMO relative to league is a necessity and above/below season average should be standard on sites like ball-ref and nba.com