Team Pop vs Team Phil Jackson

[PaulieWal]

It has yet to be proven you can without Lebron dominating the ball and marginalizing his teammates.....

He does ball dominate but his off-ball game is much better now and he doesn't marginalize his teammates. Wade and Bosh went from the respective first options on their teams to the 2nd and 3rd option on title teams. That's not "marginalizing", that's just how it goes on title teams.

No it's not how it goes.

Magic did not marginalize Kareem/Worthy
Bird did not marginalize Parish/McHale
Shaq did not marginalize Kobe
Kobe did not marginalize Pau/Bynum

When one player dominates the ball it marginalizes everyone else. I'll pick on Kobe, his shooting too much marginalizes the rest of the Lakers. Yes, they are not overly talented but trusting teammates, giving them chances to fail, allows them to grow in confidence and push the limits of their abilities. I'm not saying what Lebron does is not worthy of championship level ball. I'm saying having elite level talent with Lebron is redundant because he doesn't maximizeit or has not shown to so far. I mean you did not refute that Lebron has his own system and we have yet to see a coach be able to put in a team oriented system around Lebron......

Simply saying "one player dominates the ball it marginalizes everyone else" doesn't meany anything. How exactly did LeBron marginalize Wade and Bosh, for example? I am assuming you are referring to their numbers because their raw stats decreased and that exactly speaks to my point about them becoming 2nd and 3rd options on title teams. That's not marginalizing, that's as I put it a lot of times how title teams work. Sure if you can get more balanced scoring then that's good for the team but injuries to Wade did not make that a possibility for the Heat. As their raw stats decreased, they also experienced career highs in efficiency. And oh BTW, LeBron's own shot attempts also declined with the Heat. Again, dominating the ball can be a negative and LeBron's off the ball got better each year in Miami but by 2014 it became more difficult for him to play off of it as Wade was in an out of the lineup.

To be able to not dominate the ball you need either PGs or players who can create offensively for others and for Miami those guys were usually only Wade and LeBron. But I don't buy this marginalizing stuff. Whenever Wade was healthy he was able to play pretty well and play as a one-two tandem (2011, 2012/13 RS, heck when Wade was 100% during the streak he was averaging 23/6/6 next to LeBron).

Edit: Also, what do you mean "team oriented system"? The Heat did win their chips in a team oriented system where they spread the floor so that LeBron and Wade could wreak havoc in the post. I remember by late 2013, and 2014 people were comparing the team's ball and man movement to the Spurs. Not saying it ever reached their level but the Heat was a team that shared the ball and moved it.

[rich316]

Here's the key thing to clarify: are we going pre-2005 rule change, or post-rule change?

If it's pre-2005, it's team Phil - edge goes to dominant low-post scorers and ball-dominant guards. If it's post-2005, edge goes to team Pop - 3-point shooting and passing. Popovich saw that the game had changed, so he changed his system accordingly. The triangle (and MJ and Shaq) was perfect for the 90s and early 2000s, because post-ups and isolations were the best ways to get to the rim.

[GYK]

Here's the key thing to clarify: are we going pre-2005 rule change, or post-rule change?

If it's pre-2005, it's team Phil - edge goes to dominant low-post scorers and ball-dominant guards. If it's post-2005, edge goes to team Pop - 3-point shooting and passing. Popovich saw that the game had changed, so he changed his system accordingly. The triangle (and MJ and Shaq) was perfect for the 90s and early 2000s, because post-ups and isolations were the best ways to get to the rim.

2008-2011 Phil had the best record
I say team Pop simply since they have a better team. Not because the system. Both are extremely similar. One just is nameless.

[Doormatt]

Can someone explain why Lebron is on team Pop and why Jordan isn't on team PJax? Kinda makes this lopsided when you just add someone whose never even played for Pop, and that someone happens to be Lebron....