Jordan's all-time ranking if he were an average defender

Jim Naismith · Post #1 » by **Jim Naismith** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:18 pm

Where would you rank Michael Jordan all-time if he were only an average defender?

In this scenario:
* Jordan's defense is average for a shooting guard of the same age
* Jordan's offensive performance remains unchanged.

Vote for your ranking in the above poll.

colts18 · Post #2 » by **colts18** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:31 pm

#3 behind Kareem and Shaq

magicmerl · Post #3 » by **magicmerl** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:32 pm

Well, I'd have to think that his team results would be poorer as well given plays like the strip of malone to ice one championship. Would he only win 3 rings? 4?

He'd probably be in the 7-15 range ala Kobe (since he would be a much more comparable player to Kobe then, being a better offensive player but worse defender).

MisterHibachi · Post #4 » by **MisterHibachi** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:55 pm

Offensively, he's a top 5 player, in the same ball park as Bird and Magic. So, considering that Magic is a below average defender and Bird is probably average or below, and both are still in most people's top 10, I'm sure Jordan would be as well. Plus he has more impressive stats and accolades so probably the upper end of the same tier as Bird and Magic.

Chicago76 · Post #5 » by **Chicago76** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:01 pm

magicmerl wrote:Well, I'd have to think that his team results would be poorer as well given plays like the strip of malone to ice one championship. Would he only win 3 rings? 4?

He'd probably be in the 7-15 range ala Kobe (since he would be a much more comparable player to Kobe then, being a better offensive player but worse defender).

So much of what Pippen and Jordan were able to do defensively depended upon the other player. You can be more aggressive when you know you've got a guy of the others' caliber who is able to cut off passing lanes. Don't know how may times I've seen one really press and force his man to the baseline in the backcourt while the other comes in to tip a pass intended to reset play in the middle or the entry pass near the top of the key.

The two years they likely would not have gotten the title without Jordan's defense were the two G7 series years: 92 v. NYK and 98 vs. IND.

There wasn't a single game you could point to where you could say, "If Jordan just didn't get that steal the other team would have won.", but he had a major impact on defensive strategies that allowed the Bulls to get those 6 pt wins they wouldn't have been able to get otherwise. The big one to me was Pippen getting to pair off against Mark Jackson, which threw the Pacers totally out of sync offensively. With no Jordan playing those high entry lanes, the Bulls never would have tried that.

Post #6 » by **Quotatious** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:13 pm

Voted #3. Jordan may very well be the GOAT offensive player (I'd say he's the best individual offensive player ever, a little ahead of LeBron and Shaq - he's not as great as Magic, Oscar or Nash in terms of anchoring top offensive teams, but his ability to create for himself at will and win games almost single-handedly, is very important, especially in the playoffs - same story with James and O'Neal), so that has to count for something (actually, I'm not even sure if I'd put Russell over him, because a GOAT offensive player would generally have more impact than a GOAT defender - Russell may be an exception to this rule though, but that's largely because of era-specific circumstances - in the 3-point era, I'd take Jordan over Russell every time, pretty comfortably). Kareem would be better/greater than average defense Jordan, but not sure if anyone else would be. Well, if I still evaluate Russell's career the same way (so give him a lot of credit for dominating his era so much with his defensive presence, rebounding and outlet passing), I have to give Bill the edge over Mike, but there's an asterisk.

magicmerl · Post #7 » by **magicmerl** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:23 pm

Chicago76 wrote:There wasn't a single game you could point to where you could say, "If Jordan just didn't get that steal the other team would have won.",

You mean other than this?
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro[/youtube]

Rob Diaz · Post #8 » by **Rob Diaz** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:51 pm

With hardcore fans and new-age media, it would certainly affect his ranking, probably drops him from the consensus #1 spot.

However, with the old media and casual fans, it wouldn't make a difference. As long as he has the rings and the reputation, it wouldn't matter with them. I have never heard a mainstream analyst downplay Magic because of his defense, for instance.

Jim Naismith · Post #9 » by **Jim Naismith** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:10 pm

Rob Diaz wrote:With hardcore fans and new-age media, it would certainly affect his ranking, probably drops him from the consensus #1 spot.

However, with the old media and casual fans, it wouldn't make a difference. As long as he has the rings and the reputation, it wouldn't matter with them. I have never heard a mainstream analyst downplay Magic because of his defense, for instance.

Does average-defense Jordan win the same number of championships?

Rob Diaz · Post #10 » by **Rob Diaz** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:10 pm

The 1994 Bulls were the 6th ranked defense in the NBA, without Michael Jordan. Their offense suffered greatly, as they ranked 15th or something IIRC.

I really don't think it would make much of a difference against the questionable competition at the time IMO.

A 6th ranked defense + an average defender that is arguably the greatest offensive player in NBA history would be easily enough to win championships against the Knicks, Pacers, etc.

Jim Naismith · Post #11 » by **Jim Naismith** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:46 pm

magicmerl wrote:Well, I'd have to think that his team results would be poorer as well given plays like the strip of malone to ice one championship. Would he only win 3 rings? 4?

He'd probably be in the 7-15 range ala Kobe (since he would be a much more comparable player to Kobe then, being a better offensive player but worse defender).

LeBron James would now have a case over average-defense Jordan, since LeBron's defensive advantage would probably be bigger than Jordan's offensive advantage.

LeBron hasn't cracked top 5 yet, so that puts Jordan toward the lower half of the top ten.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #12 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:12 pm

I'd probably drop him behind Shaq & Kareem and there might be 2-3 other guys who would gain a stronger and more reasonable case against him with his defensive ability lessened.

While I have always considered Jordan the GOAT I never felt the gap was huge between him and the other GOAT candidates.

Ancalagon · Post #13 » by **Ancalagon** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:52 pm

If he plays average defense, they win maybe half the titles at best. It changes everything.

spectacularmove · Post #14 » by **spectacularmove** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:49 pm

It changes everything, specially his leadership intangibles. If he provides just an average energy on defense then he is no longer Michael Jordan.
Having said that, if he gives you just half the energy he gave on D, he would be a much better offensive player. That's why for me threre is no question him and Lebron are the two best offesive players of all time, you can't measure Offense witout having defense in the equation. Wich % of their stamina would guys like Nash or Magic give on defense? Compare that with the % of Lebron and MJ. Imagine 1988 MJ giving the same effort of Magic and Nash on D, how his offense would look like?

Colbinii · Post #15 » by **Colbinii** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:12 pm

Considering I have him and Kareem neck and neck, I would have to drop him definitely below him, and likely outside of the top 5.

Post #16 » by **trex_8063** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:47 pm

It's an interesting question. My gut says somewhere in the 3-6 range (so I voted 4-6, though he could be marginally higher). Not the GOAT, though (not even #2) without the D, though.

Dr Spaceman · Post #17 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:43 pm

spectacularmove wrote:Having said that, if he gives you just half the energy he gave on D, he would be a much better offensive player. That's why for me threre is no question him and Lebron are the two best offesive players of all time, you can't measure Offense witout having defense in the equation. Wich % of their stamina would guys like Nash or Magic give on defense? Compare that with the % of Lebron and MJ. Imagine 1988 MJ giving the same effort of Magic and Nash on D, how his offense would look like?

This is aninteresting perspective, actually. I don't know if I agree these guys are necessarily dogging it, as you imply, but maybe it's something to think about.

Anyway, regarding Nash, do you really believe that his issues were more due to lack of effort or just the fact that he was undersized, short arms, and not an overwhelming athlete? And it's probably a stretch, but do you have any examples of Nash not putting effort in?

ChokeFasncists · Post #18 » by **ChokeFasncists** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:38 pm

It depends. If he were an average defender and still win 6, it would just be a bit worse. But if he's just an average defender, meaning he would be unable to lead the team defensively, and the team wouldn't win so much, then it'd drop quite a bit, just another great scorer.

Swagalicious · Post #19 » by **Swagalicious** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:42 pm

spectacularmove wrote:It changes everything, specially his leadership intangibles. If he provides just an average energy on defense then he is no longer Michael Jordan.

This. MJ as an average defender does not win 6 rings, let alone go on two seperate three peats. I'd still have him in the Top 10, though.

Chicago76 · Post #20 » by **Chicago76** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:01 pm

magicmerl wrote:
Chicago76 wrote:There wasn't a single game you could point to where you could say, "If Jordan just didn't get that steal the other team would have won.",

You mean other than this?
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCTp57LQro[/youtube]

That wasn't a 7 game series though. The Knicks and Pacers series were much closer and Jordan's D was much more likely to tip the series outcome in the other 2 series.

Jordan's ranking if he were an average defender?