Bigger edge: Jordan's offense or Olajuwon's defense

Jim Naismith · Post #1 » by **Jim Naismith** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:43 pm

Which edge is bigger?

—or—

Consider this only for the peak seasons of both players.

Vote in the above poll.

Post #2 » by **Quotatious** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:49 pm

I'll put it this way - peak ('93 and '94) Hakeem was IMO a bit closer to Michael offensively, than Jordan was to Olajuwon defensively, but anything beyond that (even '95, because Hakeem's defense clearly regressed that year, compared to '93 and '94), MJ's offensive edge was more significant. Hakeem's passing ability, ability to read double teams etc. wasn't on the same level before '93, which means that he was a flawed offensive player (excellent one, but still not really "complete").

Overall, clearly MJ's offense.

Jim Naismith · Post #3 » by **Jim Naismith** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:51 pm

Quotatious wrote:I'll put it this way - peak ('93 and '94) Hakeem was IMO a bit closer to Michael offensively, than Jordan was to Olajuwon defensively, but anything beyond that (even '95, because Hakeem's defense clearly regressed that year, compared to '93 and '94), MJ's offensive edge was more significant. Hakeem's passing ability, ability to read double teams etc. wasn't on the same level before '93, which means that he was a flawed offensive player (excellent one, but still not really "complete").

Overall, clearly MJ's offense.

I'll modify the OP to narrow the question to their peaks.

Biddy77 · Post #4 » by **Biddy77** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:00 pm

individual O and D is most relevant where the ball goes, and the offense has more control of ball location than the D does.

In other words, you can play around a great defender to some extent, but you can't avoid a great offensive player.

GYK · Post #5 » by **GYK** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:09 pm

Jordan's offense
He took on an incredible resonsibility as the team scorer. A gap you won't fine again for sometime.
As the second playmaker the gap was still there between he and the third.
Mike is the GOAT offensive player.

MrKnox · Post #6 » by **MrKnox** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Jordan's offense. Averaging 35-45 PPG in a playoff series is much more valuable than anything Hakeem could counter with defensively. That's why he was bounced out in the first round 9 times. Same reason KG got dumped in the first round 7 straight years. Defense is nice. Offense is better.

Joao Saraiva · Post #7 » by **Joao Saraiva** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:06 pm

Too close to call. Come on Hakeem during the NBA finals made Ewing look like a god damn bad player. 18.9 PPG on 39%ts.

Karl Malone in that same year: 26 PPG on 50.5ts%.

Charles Barkley, the king of efficiency: 23.4 PPG 53.2 ts%.

Clyde Drexler: 21 PPG 50.5ts%.

Hakeem had 4 blocks per game and a 97 DRTG.

This already looks incredible and I don't even think this shows exactly how great he was. Please guys go watch those playoffs games to witness GOAT defense.

I don't know if it's MJ or Hakeem, but in terms of peak it's too close to call for me. Hakeem was beasting.

Jim Naismith · Post #8 » by **Jim Naismith** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:31 pm

MrKnox wrote:Jordan's offense. Averaging 35-45 PPG in a playoff series is much more valuable than anything Hakeem could counter with defensively. That's why he was bounced out in the first round 9 times. Same reason KG got dumped in the first round 7 straight years. Defense is nice. Offense is better.

The question applies only to Hakeem at his peak.

Shock Defeat · Post #9 » by **Shock Defeat** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:29 am

Might as well just say peak Dream vs. peak Jordan.

and I'd say if Dream played at his peak for longer than the two or so years people would be talking about him as the GOAT.

magicmerl · Post #10 » by **magicmerl** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:54 am

This is just comparing the two players at their peaks, right?

Ballerhogger · Post #11 » by **Ballerhogger** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:03 am

Jordan offense was unstoppable at his peak. Hakeem defense was great but Jordan peak offense was better

spectacularmove · Post #12 » by **spectacularmove** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:12 pm

IMO MJ's imact on defense(Lebron's too) is very underrated. Given his intangibles and leadership qualities, I can't see a scenario where his team wouldn't be a great defensive team. So I would take MJ's edge

KyletheDingbat · Post #13 » by **KyletheDingbat** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:33 pm

I saw both guys, I'm choosing Michael. Saw Hakeem play in person which was awesome, but he didn't dominate a game like MJ. Jordan was on another level and it's only been recently that people have been pushing the Hakeem thing. He wasn't thought of as all that back in the day.

It's like if people 15 years from now start saying Dirk was actually about as good as Lebron. You can actually make that statement a little easier I guess, since Dirk beat him in the Finals.

Biddy77 · Post #14 » by **Biddy77** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:45 pm

People are ignoring the simple reality of opportunity. Yes, Hakeem had an amazing impact against other Cs. But... How much of an impact would his D have in a series against those Bulls?

Help defense is certainly beneficial, but even Hakeem couldn't help enough to have a game dominating impact against a team built around wing scorers (Jordan? Durant? Curry?). Even the greatest defenders ever can have their influence mitigated somewhat.

Michael's offense was unavoidable.

Volcano · Post #15 » by **Volcano** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:25 am

Biddy77 wrote:People are ignoring the simple reality of opportunity. Yes, Hakeem had an amazing impact against other Cs. But... How much of an impact would his D have in a series against those Bulls?

Help defense is certainly beneficial, but even Hakeem couldn't help enough to have a game dominating impact against a team built around wing scorers (Jordan? Durant? Curry?). Even the greatest defenders ever can have their influence mitigated somewhat.

Michael's offense was unavoidable.

given the right system, couldn't he anchor something like KG's Celtics? PP/Ray were never known as good defenders, yet they gave star wing players a ton of problems

Biddy77 · Post #16 » by **Biddy77** » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:35 am

Volcano wrote:
Biddy77 wrote:People are ignoring the simple reality of opportunity. Yes, Hakeem had an amazing impact against other Cs. But... How much of an impact would his D have in a series against those Bulls?

Help defense is certainly beneficial, but even Hakeem couldn't help enough to have a game dominating impact against a team built around wing scorers (Jordan? Durant? Curry?). Even the greatest defenders ever can have their influence mitigated somewhat.

Michael's offense was unavoidable.

given the right system, couldn't he anchor something like KG's Celtics? PP/Ray were never known as good defenders, yet they gave star wing players a ton of problems

Of course he could. Did, in fact.

But...

He's one man, guarding a certain amount of space, and his impact is relative to how often players have the ball within that space. As I touched on earlier, having peak (D) Hakeem doesn't help you much with defending the 3. A team like the Warriors would happily play around him, and he would be a minimal factor on D. At most, having Hakeem covering the rim allows your wings to pressure the line a little more aggressively, but you're still relying on them, not on Hakeem-- he's not out there swatting 3pt shooters. His value increases and decreases as the ball is near or far from his area.

Jim Naismith · Post #17 » by **Jim Naismith** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:46 pm

Taken together, the lopsided results of the Jordan-vs-Hakeem poll and the Kobe-vs-Hakeem poll seem to imply:

I'm not sure the gap between Jordan's offense and Kobe's offense is that great.

Prokorov · Post #18 » by **Prokorov** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:49 pm

Biddy77 wrote:individual O and D is most relevant where the ball goes, and the offense has more control of ball location than the D does.

In other words, you can play around a great defender to some extent, but you can't avoid a great offensive player.

This is kind of where I am at. while i believe the gap between MJ and Dream is bigger on defense, i think the difference in impact is in MJ's favor even though that offensive gap is smaller. I'd also say teams had to change what they do more to stop MJ as opposed to the dream who you basically play straight up and send double teams against