01' Celtics: Pierce, Walker, Billups, JJ and Bowen

[justinian]

If the Celtics had exhibited patience starting in 1997, they would have had a roster of Pierce, Walker, Chauncey Billups, Bruce Bowen, and Joe Johnson. Can this lineup of Celtics contend for championship?

- Toine
- Pierce
- Joe Johnson
- Billups
- Bruce Bowen

[Odinn]

Nope.

[Quotatious]

They would have literally zero inside presence. Antoine would be their biggest player, and he's a guy that I wouldn't really want on my team even at PF, let alone center...They would get steamrolled by most teams with any legit bigs, or even quick, athletic guards who can penetrate and get to the foul ine (a guy like peak Rose or current Westbrook would OWN them).

On the other hand, they would be a pretty effective small-ball team on offense (especially without Toine - I mean, Pierce, Billups and JJ is already enough scoring talent), but I don't think it's enough to make up for their total lack of size down low.

I think they would hover around 50% W in the East right now, so probably worse than they actually were, just with Pierce and Walker (because they actually played good defense, having a center like Tony Battie clogging the middle - at least I'm talking about 2002 and 2003 seasons, when they had the 5th and 8th best defense in the league, respectively).

[ardee]

They would have literally zero inside presence. Antoine would be their biggest player, and he's a guy that I wouldn't really want on my team even at PF, let alone center...They would get steamrolled by most teams with any legit bigs, or even quick, athletic guards who can penetrate and get to the foul ine (a guy like peak Rose or current Westbrook would OWN them).

On the other hand, they would be a pretty effective small-ball team on offense (especially without Toine - I mean, Pierce, Billups and JJ is already enough scoring talent), but I don't think it's enough to make up for their total lack of size down low.

I think they would hover around 50% W in the East right now, so probably worse than they actually were, just with Pierce and Walker (because they actually played good defense, having a center like Tony Battie clogging the middle - at least I'm talking about 2002 and 2003 seasons, when they had the 5th and 8th best defense in the league, respectively).

You mean 50 wins or 50% means 41?

[Quotatious]

You mean 50 wins or 50% means 41?

41. I think they would be somewhere around the current Bucks' level, maybe slightly better, between the Cavs and Bucks. As talented as they would be offensively, their defense (and rebounding) would REALLY suck, not having any true bigmen. They would be similar to the '91 Run TMC Warriors (but even Golden State had a bigman with great size and some shotblocking ability, like Alton Lister).

[Biddy77]

There is only one ball. Pierce, Billups, JJ... All of those guys are most effective on the ball. I'm not saying they're ineffective off it, but I am saying that a guy like Wesley Matthews or a Rashard Lewis type who make a living in catch & shoot play are more valuable as a third guy than stacking primary handlers. Sure, Bowen plays off the ball, and Toine had a bit of that, but... 3 primary handlers?

[Quotatious]

There is only one ball. Pierce, Billups, JJ... All of those guys are most effective on the ball. I'm not saying they're ineffective off it, but I am saying that a guy like Wesley Matthews or a Rashard Lewis type who make a living in catch & shoot play are more valuable as a third guy than stacking primary handlers. Sure, Bowen plays off the ball, and Toine had a bit of that, but... 3 primary handlers?

I don't think there would be a ball dominance problem with any of these guys. Pierce and Johnson are excellent catch & shoot guys - JJ shot ridiculous percentage from beyond the arc in Phoenix in '05, playing with Nash - having Billups and Pierce to draw defensive attention, should give him similar opportunities to take advantage of the open space created by them, and Pierce has never been a ball dominant player for a star wing. What's funny is that Billups is one of the most portable point guards in NBA history, he doesn't have to consume 20 seconds of the shot clock by himself, unlike some other great PGs. His skillset makes him a good fit on a stacked team with a lot of offensive talent.

Paul and Joe are slightly redundant, but neither is a major ballhog and both can work well off-ball, so I'm not too worried about their offense. Their defense, on the other hand...Likely would be the worst in the league, and by a good margin. Toine at center and Pierce playing PF full time? That's a REALLY bad idea.

[GYK]

Depends on Walker playing the stretch four at a great level during a PF/C scoring era.
They could dominate today with the there's flying and penetration but who knows.

[Biddy77]

Q,

My point was largely from a chemistry standpoint. JJ left Boston and Phoenix for what? To be a featured player. Regardless of his off ball ability, he was MORE effective on the ball, and wanted it. Similarly, Pierce is playing well away from the ball for the Wizards, but he was most effective with it. Off the ball, neither of them is Klay, Wes, Korver, etc.

With all 3 of those guys, somebody becomes a version less than we know them to have been, simply because of lost opportunity and reduced role, and they likely lose JJ.

[colts18]

How good are they if all 5 of those players are in their prime? Maybe 60 wins or so.