Searching for Ben Wallace ~ Starring Nerlens Noel (2015)

[E-Balla]

I don't think he can ever put on the muscle that Noah did. Noah is not stick thin like Nerlens in the lower body. Look at Noah's legs.

Deke had slim legs and weighed 225 coming into the league at 24. Actually his lack of strength was his biggest weakness. If he could be the best defender in the league nothing is stopping Nerlens from a physical standpoint.

[GYK]

you're some anecdotes away from being a bleacher reporter..fantastic title and info.
I don't think Wallace with Noel. He's been bad offensively but that's because he's a midrange shooter. I think he's trying to become Ibaka.

[sixerswillrule]

Well...I mean for obvious reasons he's a long way form Big Ben. The "Big" being the thing since Ben's defining trait was his physical strength and toughness.

But yes on the rare steals/blocks defensive combo. You could see in college that he was just a special shotblocker, with both hands really. Just has that special timing and knack to go with the length. After watching Cousins just toss him around like a rag doll the last few weeks I don't think power is ever going to be in his game however. There is some Kirilenko to this shotblocker/stealer. Ideally paired with a center of some bulk to take the more powerful opposing big, then let Nerlens play the Ibaka role of swooping in from off the ball.

Noel will never be built like Big Ben and he shouldn't try to be. He only turns 21 in April though, he'll get stronger.

I like the Kirilenko comparison. He could become a Chandler/Kirilenko hybrid defensively and a Chandler/Noah/Marion hybrid offensively.

[Krodis]

Even if he never gets the strength to guard the DeMarcus Cosuins's of the world one on one, he still projects as an otherworldly defender. He seems to already be having quite an impact, which is exceedingly rare for a big his age, especially for a rookie. (Although it's a bit unfair to compare him to most rookies given he's been in the NBA an extra year due to injury).

[tsherkin]

I doubt strength will be a major issue for him, apart from a specific matchup here or there. If he can keep contesting shots and hitting the boards, then his broad impact will overshadow any kind of post battle-related struggles he might encounter.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I don't think he can ever put on the muscle that Noah did. Noah is not stick thin like Nerlens in the lower body. Look at Noah's legs.

Deke had slim legs and weighed 225 coming into the league at 24. Actually his lack of strength was his biggest weakness. If he could be the best defender in the league nothing is stopping Nerlens from a physical standpoint.

Well Deke, a) he really never was 225. You could see that. But b) he was 7'2" with big broad shoulders that let him put on good weight up top at least.

Nerlens just has a very narrow build. He's got no place to put weight. The sooner Embiid comes online and Nerlens gets to PF the better. I'm not 100% sure of the lateral quickness there, and having him dragged out out the perimeter to chase around some scrubby "stretch 4" is kind of a waste, but his length will be very disruptive to 6'8"/6'9" guys, and only a few of them (againg Zach etc.) will really try to muscle him every night. Banging around with 270lb guys though will shorten his career.

[E-Balla]

I don't think he can ever put on the muscle that Noah did. Noah is not stick thin like Nerlens in the lower body. Look at Noah's legs.

Deke had slim legs and weighed 225 coming into the league at 24. Actually his lack of strength was his biggest weakness. If he could be the best defender in the league nothing is stopping Nerlens from a physical standpoint.

Well Deke, a) he really never was 225. You could see that. But b) he was 7'2" with big broad shoulders that let him put on good weight up top at least.

Deke being 225-230 is very believable and Noel has bulked up considerably compared to how he looked right after his injury. Guys like Deke, Noah, and Tyson were able to get to 240 so I'm not doubting Noel when he already gained at least 20 pounds over that first season when he was hurt.

Nerlens just has a very narrow build. He's got no place to put weight. The sooner Embiid comes online and Nerlens gets to PF the better. I'm not 100% sure of the lateral quickness there, and having him dragged out out the perimeter to chase around some scrubby "stretch 4" is kind of a waste, but his length will be very disruptive to 6'8"/6'9" guys, and only a few of them (againg Zach etc.) will really try to muscle him every night. Banging around with 270lb guys though will shorten his career.

I'll agree that he won't be the most durable guy but Noel can easily put on weight like Tyson and others have. There's a ton of C's that had slight builds and improved physically.

[Doctor MJ]

Ok so I had a little fun with the title.

Yup, I see what you did there.

So I'll start off saying what others have said: The original Russell-Davis comparison (that I did) was based on them being similar types of players, and Wallace-Noel just have entirely different bodies. That doesn't make the comparison invalid though entirely because obviously you're referring to the defensive focus. And Noel certainly seems like a big time talent.

I think I'll use the thread to reflect on Davis and Noel, as well as someone new.

Davis is the guy I was "right" about. I don't watch a lot of college ball, and I don't claim to be a great scout, but I was all over the Davis bandwagon when I saw what he could do in college, and wrote many posts advocating for him to people who were skeptical.

But while it's nice people let me take the victory lap, there's the matter that Davis' success in the pros doesn't really look that much like what I envisioned. While I told people he may well have some serious offensive upside, he's easily surpassed what I imagined even in my most optimistic moments. Meanwhile, while there's no denying he's a strong defensive player, the jaw dropping impact I was hoping for hasn't occurred.

There were some, and I think E-Balla was one of them, who simply liked Noel's defense better than Davis', but that's not really the issue here. If it were simply that Noel had been a beast beyond all imagination on defense, I'd continue my Davis victory lap and just note I underestimated Noel. Instead the real issue is that Davis just lags behind a bit compared to my hopes, and Noel doesn't really change that in either direction. So what gives?

I think the issue is 2-fold:

1) I think that we aren't seeing what Davis is truly capable of on defense yet. I think his energy - and his learning focus - has been so spread on the offensive side of the ball, that he's not learning to anchor defense as fast as Noel. I also think that there are just some systematic problems with the Pelican defense and Monty Williams, and short of someone really knowledgeable convincing me otherwise, I would fire Williams this year after 5 long years in that role. They may be blaming him for something he shouldn't be blamed for, but realistically coaches rarely last 5 years in this league without some huge success, and when that's combined with a lack of growth precisely in the area where we expected the growth, I think he has to go.

2) I'm beginning to think that my advocacy based on him actually having the ideal body for NBA defense, based on the Russell look, and based on the idea that it hasn't really changed that much, was naive. And the main guy making me think that is not Davis, nor Noel, but Gobert.

Thing is, the idea of Russell having the ideal body was based on the assumption that he was long enough, that given his horizontal quickness, he was basically maxing out what you could expect to do in terms of pure shot blocking threat. Russell's impact went well beyond that of course but that was because of his brain. So my argument was that Russell was largely optimal on all major fronts, and that Davis was optimal physically (maybe with an ever so slight edge on Russell) and his brain was at the very least quite impressive.

But then you watch Gobert, and it's just clear that he benefits immensely from that extra length. Take nothing away from what was said about the importance of quickness or brainpower, shockingly all things being equal, being even longer does matter.

Maybe Davis will end up a better defensive player than Gobert - maybe Noel will end up better than both with his tendency toward steals adding into his overall threat - but the way I was presenting the optimal NBA body smacks of people talking about true big men before George Mikan arrived: I essentially argued you just wouldn't see humans much longer than Russell & Davis who were still quick & coordinated. And obviously the reality is, there's no fundamental ceiling. It's very difficult to be quick & coordinated at extreme size, but there's no proof it can't happen.

[Doctor MJ]

Even if he never gets the strength to guard the DeMarcus Cosuins's of the world one on one, he still projects as an otherworldly defender. He seems to already be having quite an impact, which is exceedingly rare for a big his age, especially for a rookie. (Although it's a bit unfair to compare him to most rookies given he's been in the NBA an extra year due to injury).

I think people need to also remember how helpless even Mutombo was against peak Shaq one-on-one. The reality is that the very best defensive anchors require a quickness to them that encourages them to be lighter, which makes it harder for them to stop an ultra-big-big...which would be a bigger deal if there were other guys out there who were really great at stopping such guys.

Against the very best offensive bigs, to me the way to work is to use the predictability of the offense against them, keep the big from getting the ball, and then don't hesitate to double on him. As is so often the case: You don't stop them, you just hope to contain them.