Defense: Tony Allen vs Kawhi Leonard

[LA Bird]

Allen got plenty of attention last playoffs with his defense on Durant but he seems to have become an afterthought this season with Leonard usurping him as the premier perimeter defender. Is the gap between Kawhi and Tony Allen defensively really that big though?

Leonard
Spurs: 2nd best defense (101.9 DRtg)
DRPM: 5.01 (2nd)
DBPM: 3.51 (8th)
On-Court DRtg: 99.5 (lowest among Spurs starters)
Steals per 36 min: 2.67 (2nd)

Allen
Grizzlies: 3rd best defense (102.1 DRtg)
DRPM: 4.58 (5th)
DBPM: 3.72 (6th)
On-Court DRtg: 97.5 (lowest among Grizzlies starters)
Steals per 36 min: 2.82 (1st)

If we take a look at on-off DRtg,

Grizzlies
Lee: +7.0
Gasol: +6.1
Conley: +3.9
Randolph: -1.1
Allen: -8.3

Spurs
Parker: +4.8
Duncan: -0.4
Green: -0.9
Diaw: -2.2
Leonard: -5.3

Allen and Leonard appear to be the anchors of their team's defense (not Gasol/Duncan) and Allen's -8.3 is one of if not the best.

Leonard is in most people's top 3~5 DPOY candidate but I have yet to see Allen get a single mention in the DPOY threads. Why is this? Grizzlies' lack of media exposure? Based on stats above, shouldn't Allen be mentioned in the same breath as Leonard when talking about best perimeter defenders in league today and potential DPOY candidates?

[cpower]

Allen got plenty of attention last playoffs with his defense on Durant but he seems to have become an afterthought this season with Leonard usurping him as the premier perimeter defender. Is the gap between Kawhi and Tony Allen defensively really that big though?

Leonard
Spurs: 2nd best defense (101.9 DRtg)
DRPM: 5.01 (2nd)
DBPM: 3.51 (8th)
On-Court DRtg: 99.5 (lowest among Spurs starters)
Steals per 36 min: 2.67 (2nd)

Allen
Grizzlies: 3rd best defense (102.1 DRtg)
DRPM: 4.58 (5th)
DBPM: 3.72 (6th)
On-Court DRtg: 97.5 (lowest among Grizzlies starters)
Steals per 36 min: 2.82 (1st)

If we take a look at on-off DRtg,

Grizzlies
Lee: +7.0
Gasol: +6.1
Conley: +3.9
Randolph: -1.1
Allen: -8.3

Spurs
Parker: +4.8
Duncan: -0.4
Green: -0.9
Diaw: -2.2
Leonard: -5.3

Allen and Leonard appear to be the anchors of their team's defense (not Gasol/Duncan) and Allen's -8.3 is one of if not the best.

Leonard is in most people's top 3~5 DPOY candidate but I have yet to see Allen get a single mention in the DPOY threads. Why is this? Grizzlies' lack of media exposure? Based on stats above, shouldn't Allen be mentioned in the same breath as Leonard when talking about best perimeter defenders in league today and potential DPOY candidates?

This is because Gasol is considered to be the anchor of the MEM defense, despite Allen's defensive dominance. Medias don't look up defensive advance metrics when they evaluate defense. Remember how Kobe got all those D-teams?

[magicmerl]

OP makes a compelling post.

[GSP]

Great thread. I still believe Tony is the best perimeter defender in the league and has been for years. Im not saying taking Kawhi over him now is crazy or anything but i find it very strange how it seems like its a given from alot of the posts i see on here now that Kawhi is the best perimeter defender.

[Atmanne]

Fair or not, MPG, especially relative to his teammates, hurts Allen. Leonard averages the most minutes on his team by a decent margin. Allen averages the 6th most minutes on his team, which makes him a bit of an afterthought.

He remains an incredible defender though and I think they're on the same level on a per possession basis. Leonard simply plays a ton more of them.

[CurryUpNow]

He would have been able to do a better job against Klay if he were playing

[tmorgan]

Yep, right on target... it's the minutes. Top notch defense is tiring, man, and doing it for 26 minutes a game isn't as impressive as doing it for 32 minutes a game. Pretty simple.

Also, although offensive ability isn't part of this award, playing a bigger role in the offense does take energy, which makes what Kawhi does even more impressive in comparison to Allen's total role.

[yoyoboy]

According to NBA.com, Leonard's DFG% (FG% of an opponent whom Leonard is guarding) is 43.9%, which is 1.1% lower than their normal FG% of 45%.

On there other hand, Allen's DFG% is a mind-blowing 37%, which is 7.5% lower than their normal FG% of 44.5%.

Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP, and I think Allen is clearly the better defender.

[CaliBullsFan]

Allen, Bradley and Gilchrist > Kawhi IMO

[Kendrick Lamar]

Allen, Bradley and Gilchrist > Kawhi IMO

I can see your arguments for Allen and MKG but what's the argument for Bradley?

[Volcano]

Tony Allen's not big enough of a name and doesn't put up good enough boxscore stats.

[lukekarts]

Yep, the funny thing is, Tony Allen isn't a good enough offensive player to be considered for DPOY.

[Dr Spaceman]

OP made a point that's hard to argue with.

In general I've always valued team defenders over guys who "stick" their matchup really well, and I don't think stellar 1v1 defense is really even all that necessary. As such, I've always preferred Kawhi and Iguodala to guys like Tony Allen.

That said, the numbers in the OP are interesting, and regression data is showing Tony Allen to be a far more impactful defender than Gasol this season. I think the same caveats apply here though, that we're always used to seeing with impact data: namely that Allen plays a more limited role defensively than Kawhi (at least as far as I'm concerned) and thus it's easier to make huge impact when you have a more focused task. I still see Gasol as the Grizzlies most important defender, if only because he's calling the shots and gliding around the court looking for places to help.

[LA Bird]

According to NBA.com, Leonard's DFG% (FG% of an opponent whom Leonard is guarding) is 43.9%, which is 1.1% lower than their normal FG% of 45%.

On there other hand, Allen's DFG% is a mind-blowing 37%, which is 7.5% lower than their normal FG% of 44.5%.

Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP, and I think Allen is clearly the better defender.

Interesting. I have never head of this DFG% before.
Do you have a link as to where it is on the NBA website?

[yoyoboy]

According to NBA.com, Leonard's DFG% (FG% of an opponent whom Leonard is guarding) is 43.9%, which is 1.1% lower than their normal FG% of 45%.

On there other hand, Allen's DFG% is a mind-blowing 37%, which is 7.5% lower than their normal FG% of 44.5%.

Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP, and I think Allen is clearly the better defender.

Interesting. I have never head of this DFG% before.
Do you have a link as to where it is on the NBA website?

Sure.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2754/tracking/defense/

Just look up any player, and switch the drop down to "Tracking Defense" and it gives you a nice breakdown. You can also look up "Player Tracking Stats" on the site and switch over to "Defense" to find some defensive statistics, like DFG% at the rim, for players.

[Atmanne]

According to NBA.com, Leonard's DFG% (FG% of an opponent whom Leonard is guarding) is 43.9%, which is 1.1% lower than their normal FG% of 45%.

On there other hand, Allen's DFG% is a mind-blowing 37%, which is 7.5% lower than their normal FG% of 44.5%.

Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP, and I think Allen is clearly the better defender.

Eh. Your opinion on who's the better defender is fine, but I don't think DFG% is an overriding stat that determines someone's "clearly" better than another guy. Just like how Kawhi's superior defensive rating, DRPM, defensive win shares, foul rate (Allen fouls A LOT more), rebounding, ect. doesn't mean he's easily better than Allen.

They're both the best at what they do within their team's scheme. Kawhi's asked to dig and recover all the time, with the main objective to wall off the paint. If he was told to stay in a guy's jersey more often, they damn sure wouldn't be shooting a high percentage from 3.

[yoyoboy]

According to NBA.com, Leonard's DFG% (FG% of an opponent whom Leonard is guarding) is 43.9%, which is 1.1% lower than their normal FG% of 45%.

On there other hand, Allen's DFG% is a mind-blowing 37%, which is 7.5% lower than their normal FG% of 44.5%.

Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP, and I think Allen is clearly the better defender.

Eh. Your opinion on who's the better defender is fine, but I don't think DFG% is an overriding stat that determines someone's "clearly" better than another guy. Just like how Kawhi's superior defensive rating, DRPM, defensive win shares, foul rate (Allen fouls A LOT more), rebounding, ect. doesn't mean he's easily better than Allen.

They're both the best at what they do within their team's scheme. Kawhi's asked to dig and recover all the time, with the main objective to wall off the paint. If he was told to stay in a guy's jersey more often, they damn sure wouldn't be shooting a high percentage from 3.

......






"Add this fact to all the other metrics posted in the OP...

I wasn't just using DFG%.

[Atmanne]

Right, but all the other metrics (most of them far more comprehensive than DFG%) showed no conclusive separation between the two, so I don't see how DFG% makes Allen clearly better.