2 Main Difference between MJ and LBJ

[pipfan]

These are the two best players I have seen (I started watching the NBA in 1977). I think LBJ is clearly a top 8 player all time already, and he is destined for the #2 or #3 spot. But, he will not dethrone MJ for 2 reasons (in no order)

1. Narrative-MJ just came at the right time-NBA was growing, America and the world were opening up to accepting black icons (Cosby, Michael Jackson) and MJ was so easy to love. Of course, he is a terrible person in many ways (yes, he was charitable, but quite the a// too), but he lived a sheltered life compared to LBJ. Now, with Social Media, our celebrities are under constant watch. Also, MJ just had more memorable moments than LBJ has had, which is important in building a legacy.

2. Clutch play-for the regular season and post season their stats are similar. We all should know now that LBJ is clutch and has won many big games. But, we also know by the eye test that there have been plenty of questionable moments for LBJ in tight moments. Really poor shooting, silly turnovers and uncertain play are all characteristics we have witnessed. With MJ there was never any doubt (other than 95) that he wanted the ball/wanted the shot/knew what he had to do. Of course, he wasn't always successful, but his confidence was unmatched in NBA history.

Other than those 2 areas, I call them even. One is about perception, and not fair to LBJ. But the crunch time argument is all that keeps me from saying LBJ=MJ

[PrimoPastaLover]

The only major difference between the two is MJ always had the better team surrounding him

[pipfan]

Sorry-differences

[Texas Chuck]

The only major difference between the two is MJ always had the better team surrounding him

that's really not at all the only major difference....


But to me the key difference is that Mike was marketed to us as a guy to love--and he was loved. Lebron was very willing to be the villian--tho he ironically, unlike Mike, he really really wants to be liked--and thus was both loved and hated. I think perception (and narrative) play a huge part.

But Mike was a superior player overall and we shouldn't lose sight of that. Lebron is an all-time great. Mike is just greater.

[Swagalicious]

2 Main differences

one is SF, the other SG
one is retired, the other is not

bonus: one is 6/6, the other 2/5 take it easy bron fans

[Joao Saraiva]

There are a lot of diferences between them.
1. LeBron is more versatile on D than MJ. He guards more positions and can close the middle. Other than him I don't even think there was another perimeter player who did that for his team and won the title.

2. Michael Jordan has a much more consistent mid range jumper.

3. LeBron's playmaking is superior.

4. LeBron was, at parts of his career, a much better 3 point shooter than MJ ever was.

5. The narrative. Yes LeBron is clutch as hell. It's just that the myth that he wasn't clutch started in 2011 after a big failure in the finals and missing a ton of game winners in the RS. It just went wrong for him. Suddenly the Celtics series or the Bulls series never happened. I got news for you: he played bad for most part of the 11 finals, not only 4th quarters or clutch situations.-

Another part of the myth: the NBA finals perfection. At the age of 30 MJ was 2/2 in the NBA finals and LeBron is 2/5. I can't understand why LeBron playing bad instead of having that G5 against the Pistons, collapsing against Indiana in 14 or losing to the Bulls in 11 would make him a better player.

6. Jordan was a better post player, and his footwork is for sure in the top tier ever in the NBA.

7. Michael Jordan was much more of a gambler on D, and he did it at elite level getting a ton of steals and blocks.

[pipfan]

I know there were lots of differences in their styles of play and strengths/weaknesses. Sorry, I didn't make it clear. My point is that they balance each other out, their overall impact is the same, except for MJ being better in the clutch. And LBJ not only has the 2011 FInals-which would have NEVER happened with MJ, but he has had plenty of other moments where you wondered what the best player was doing.

[rrravenred]

As players, the difference was twofold. MJ had a remarkably consistent jumper as well as a fanatical obsession with not just winning, but in beating a foe that he built up in his mind as a hated enemy.

The Hall speech where he talked about spite being one of his great motivators just does not apply to Lebron. He is mentally relentless, where Lebron is only highly focused. Additionally, MJ has (generally) had the advantage of better constructed and absolutely better coached teams. The Phil Factor is real.

The idea of MJ as a revolutionary figure (building on the salvation work done for the NBA by Bird and Magic in the 80s) is an interesting one. MJ had a mystique developed for him that has been rarely replicated in world sports media. His departure to the seclusion of minor league baseball and then roaring return to unblemished success (unless, of course, you uncharitably notice that the year 1995 exists) is straight out of a not-particularly-inventive screenwriter's mind.

Lebron, OTOH, came of age where (fairly or unfairly) divisive figures like Shaq, Kobe and Iverson had been the major icons. Lebron followed up on that ambiguity with the stupidity of "The Decision", and the spotty team results (personal contributions notwithstanding) past the initial Cleveland stint have made his narrative arc a lot more ambiguous.

[Joao Saraiva]

Let's look at some really bad moments of MJ in the clutch (doesn't mean he isn't clutch, obviously, but people act like he never failed):

Game 4 vs. Cavs in 1989: In the game before "the shot", Jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game as well.

1991 NBA finals, Game 1: Jordan goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. Bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left, but Perkins would take advantage of Jordan's missed shots as Lakers won game 1.

Game 4 of 1992 vs. Blazers (finals): Jordan goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter! Blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game.

Game 1 vs. Knicks 1993: Jordan goes just 2 for his last 12 shot. Knicks pull away as Jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half.

1993 ECF vs. Knicks (game 6): Goes 0-7 in fourth quarter (Pippen bails Bulls out with clutch shots though).

Game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: Jordan's nightmare minute.

Game 4 vs. Jazz (1997): Jordan goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession as Stockton took the ball away from him. On the next play, Jordan would miss again on and as a result, the Jazz seal the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 3: Jordan misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. He would just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 4: Jordan misses game winning three pointer despite getting a clean look.


So please, can we stop the myth that Michael Jordan never failed? There are also a ton of RS examples.

Again, my point is not to say MJ wasn't clutch or GOAT, but please, let's stop the ultra clutch never misses stuff.

[JeepCSC]

I knew what I was getting when Jordan played. He had only three modes, "attack", "attack faster", "kill". When I saw him fail, it was usually on his terms. Lebron can be a wild card. Not simply in the off years either. He'll be the greatest player in the world one quarter and then you'll forget he is on the floor the next quarter.

That is perhaps a stylistic difference. Perhaps not even a wholly fair one (memory has a funny way of being better the closer you are to an event). Lebron is clearly the 2nd greatest wing player I've seen live, and any criticism I have of his game needs to be taken in context of that fact.

[JordansBulls]

MJ 24-0 with HCA as the best player And 14-0 vs 50+ win teams.

[Joao Saraiva]

MJ 24-0 with HCA as the best player And 14-0 vs 50+ win teams.

What's his record without HCA and against 50+ wins on those terms? Want me to look it up?

[pipfan]

Joao, those are good examples, but that is not my point. In those times, did you doubt MJ's resolve or will? He had bad moments, but as someone said, they were on his terms. LBJ has had too many turnovers in the clutch for my liking. Again, we know LBJ is tops at the end of the game usually, but there are too many examples where he didn't want the ball or was too quick to pass off. Of course, sometimes the pass is the best option, but maybe not when you have JJ Barea or 38 yr. old JKidd on you.
Isn't there some crazy stat of MJ in crunchtime in his prime? Like, no turnovers (except 95) and crazy ratings

[Joao Saraiva]

85 1st round vs Bucks without HCA - lost
86 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
87 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
88 2nd round vs Pistons without HCA - lost (Pippen joined this year)
89 beat two teams without HCA and then lost without HCA - win, win, lost
90 won once without HCA, lost without HCA - win, lost
93 - won against the Knicks and Suns without HCA - win, win
95 - won against the Hornets without HCA, lost to Orlando - win, lost
98 - won against Utah without HCA - win

So without HCA Jordan won 7 and lost 7. Without Pippen he lost 100% of the times. So... can I jump into some insane conclusions like JordanBulls?

EDIT: I don't mean to achieve anything by looking at this, I don't mean to say MJ's success is because of Pippen. I'm just showing that those kind of arguments of record with HCA, wihout HCA don't tell me how great a player is.

[Joao Saraiva]

Joao, those are good examples, but that is not my point. In those times, did you doubt MJ's resolve or will? He had bad moments, but as someone said, they were on his terms. LBJ has had too many turnovers in the clutch for my liking. Again, we know LBJ is tops at the end of the game usually, but there are too many examples where he didn't want the ball or was too quick to pass off. Of course, sometimes the pass is the best option, but maybe not when you have JJ Barea or 38 yr. old JKidd on you.
Isn't there some crazy stat of MJ in crunchtime in his prime? Like, no turnovers (except 95) and crazy ratings

I just told you about the TO vs Stockton.

LeBron's TOV% in the playoffs in the clutch doesn't sky rocket. It's natural he turns it more than MJ - players who have a big volume of assists will usually turn it over more than the ones that don't assist. It's usually the way it works. LeBron also has higher APG numbers and TOV%, so it's really something I'm not surprised by.

Funny that you bring the 11 finals. Some people act like LeBron's career is the 11 finals while that is a really small sample. I tell you what:
06 - he was brilliant in crunch time vs Wizards, scoring two buzzer beaters in those series.
07 - game 5 vs Pistons? Also had other moments.
08 - game 7 vs Boston?
09 - Absolutely brilliant in game 1, hits game winner in game 2, tied the game with two last second FTs in the 4th and played very well in OT. Crushed the Magic in G5 with a monster 4th quarter.
10 - Not really a lot of games to be clutch. Games were mostly not that even. Big losses, big wins.
11 - Clutch moments against CHI and Boston, two of the top defenses in the league.
12- Came up big time after time after time...
13 - Great clutch performances vs Pacers and Spurs.
14 - Great clutch performances against the Pacers and against SAS in G1 and 2 (Game 1 he was not that close but he was the only guy playing well in the 4th, even when he was cramping all over the place he still tried to come back and scored). The other games he didn't have a chance to be clutch.

But yes, let's talk about the 11 finals only.

Wanna say MJ is better in the clutch? Yes I respect that. But the gap is not big as some guys like to suggest. But I get it, the narrative crap from 11 will always follow LeBron when people want to make a case against him, even with two really clutch series in that playoffs run.

[JeepCSC]

85 1st round vs Bucks without HCA - lost
86 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
87 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
88 2nd round vs Pistons without HCA - lost (Pippen joined this year)
89 beat two teams without HCA and then lost without HCA - win, win, lost
90 won once without HCA, lost without HCA - win, lost
93 - won against the Knicks and Suns without HCA - win, win
95 - won against the Hornets without HCA, lost to Orlando - win, lost
98 - won against Utah without HCA - win

So without HCA Jordan won 7 and lost 7. Without Pippen he lost 100% of the times. So... can I jump into some insane conclusions like JordanBulls?

You were doing so well until you threw a curveball about Pippen. Incidentally it was 6-7. Bulls had the HCA over the 76ers in 1990 due to the better record.

[Joao Saraiva]

85 1st round vs Bucks without HCA - lost
86 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
87 1st round vs Celtics without HCA - lost
88 2nd round vs Pistons without HCA - lost (Pippen joined this year)
89 beat two teams without HCA and then lost without HCA - win, win, lost
90 won once without HCA, lost without HCA - win, lost
93 - won against the Knicks and Suns without HCA - win, win
95 - won against the Hornets without HCA, lost to Orlando - win, lost
98 - won against Utah without HCA - win

So without HCA Jordan won 7 and lost 7. Without Pippen he lost 100% of the times. So... can I jump into some insane conclusions like JordanBulls?

You were doing so well until you threw a curveball about Pippen. Incidentally it was 6-7. Bulls had the HCA over the 76ers due to the better record.

Yeah nice. I was just being as absurd as the HCA argument.

What really matters to me is how Jordan played. He could have gone 0-7 without HCA, he could have lost with HCA.

I just don't understand these type of empty arguments. Jordan losing some series doesn't take anything away from his greatness. If we're going to analyze players strictly by results then Bill Russell has to be considered the undisputed #1. Nobody can even come close.

And no, I don't think Jordan would never win without Pippen. With his quality, ability on offense, defense and to affect the game in so many ways, I believe he would have eventually won it all and probably would be seen as GOAT anyway.

[Goudelock]

Let's look at some really bad moments of MJ in the clutch (doesn't mean he isn't clutch, obviously, but people act like he never failed):

Game 4 vs. Cavs in 1989: In the game before "the shot", Jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game as well.

1991 NBA finals, Game 1: Jordan goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. Bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left, but Perkins would take advantage of Jordan's missed shots as Lakers won game 1.

Game 4 of 1992 vs. Blazers (finals): Jordan goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter! Blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game.

Game 1 vs. Knicks 1993: Jordan goes just 2 for his last 12 shot. Knicks pull away as Jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half.

1993 ECF vs. Knicks (game 6): Goes 0-7 in fourth quarter (Pippen bails Bulls out with clutch shots though).

Game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: Jordan's nightmare minute.

Game 4 vs. Jazz (1997): Jordan goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession as Stockton took the ball away from him. On the next play, Jordan would miss again on and as a result, the Jazz seal the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 3: Jordan misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. He would just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 4: Jordan misses game winning three pointer despite getting a clean look.


So please, can we stop the myth that Michael Jordan never failed? There are also a ton of RS examples.

Again, my point is not to say MJ wasn't clutch or GOAT, but please, let's stop the ultra clutch never misses stuff.

I kind of wish that RGM/the internet was around back then so that we could have some sort of archive of all of the overreaction threads that would pop up after these moments like : "After game 3, are we really gonna act like Jordan > Bird?"

And I've never understood why people say that Jordan>>>>>>>>>>Lebron. From what I've seen of Jordan (which is only his good games on youtube and NBA TV), and what i've seen of Lebron (good and bad games), I can't really say that one player is better than the other. They both are great players who played in different eras and did different things.

[RSCD3_]

When MJ ( and by proxy Kobe ) fail to put points on their board for their team while trying to score people say, well you make some you miss some...

When LeBron has turnovers trying to make challenging passes in the clutch , people see it as him ignoring his athleticism and passing the buck because he's afraid to fail.

Simply put not a lot people fault a scorer for missing a shot in the clutch and if he makes it it's great

However if someone passes in the clutch, the person they pass to better make it or else.

[magicmerl]

And no, I don't think Jordan would never win without Pippen. With his quality, ability on offense, defense and to affect the game in so many ways, I believe he would have eventually won it all and probably would be seen as GOAT anyway.

Actually, if the Bulls had never got Pippen, and Jordan has only won say two championships, I've very skeptical that MJ would be regarded as being in the top 5 all time, and clearly not the GOAT.