What did Kobe have over Vince Carter?

[D.Brasco]

In the immediate post-Jordan era from about '99 to 2001 the debate of who would be the "next Jordan" or who was at least the new best 2 guard in the league centered around Vince Carter vs Kobe. During those year Carter legitimately looked like he had an argument over Kobe.

VC seemed to have the size, athleticism and even shooting skill perhaps over Kobe and if you asked people who in 10 years would be seen as the better player you'd probably have quite a few saying VC. However we all know how things turned out.

Both are technically still in the league now but what was it that allowed Kobe to remain Kobe but Vince to peter out relatively?

[Quotatious]

Kobe's work ethic and drive is much better. Vince was incredibly talented (probably a little more so than Kobe), but IIRC, shortly after he was traded to the Nets, he admitted that he didn't always work hard when he was in Toronto. Carter also had a serious knee injury in 2002 (IIRC also had problems with his ankle).

Carter was clearly better than Kobe during the 1999-00 season, and I'd say also during the 2000-01 regular season (Kobe was better in the '01 playoffs, and I'd give him the edge overall, but VC was IMO better in the RS).

[BasketballFan7]

Work ethic / dedication / heart

Also, Kobe with better defense and post ability.

[yongaz]

Shaq, Pau and Phil Jackson.

/green

(or not, since this IS realgm).

[BirdsEye]

Kobe's work ethic and drive is much better. Vince was incredibly talented (probably a little more so than Kobe), but IIRC, shortly after he was traded to the Nets, he admitted that he didn't always work hard when he was in Toronto. Carter also had a serious knee injury in 2002 (IIRC also had problems with his ankle).

Carter was clearly better than Kobe during the 1999-00 season, and I'd say also during the 2000-01 regular season (Kobe was better in the '01 playoffs, and I'd give him the edge overall, but VC was IMO better in the RS).

Oh my.

[Modulate]

Better/more creative handle, better post game, better defense...plus the singular dedication to basketball.

[OnePostLegend]

Kobe's work ethic and drive is much better. Vince was incredibly talented (probably a little more so than Kobe), but IIRC, shortly after he was traded to the Nets, he admitted that he didn't always work hard when he was in Toronto. Carter also had a serious knee injury in 2002 (IIRC also had problems with his ankle).

Carter was clearly better than Kobe during the 1999-00 season, and I'd say also during the 2000-01 regular season (Kobe was better in the '01 playoffs, and I'd give him the edge overall, but VC was IMO better in the RS).

Oh my.

You disagree? IMO it's pretty clear Vince was the better run/jump athlete with slightly better body control and lateral quickness, not to mention deeper shooting range and larger hands.

[roriobane]

defense, significantly better playmaker/creator, better under-the-line shooter, much better ball-handler, post-up game/mid-range game, much better at drawing fouls and getting to line, better finisher. i'm not convinced that vc was the better basketball athlete. kobe was quicker and had a better first step and i think this is a big part of why his free-throw rate numbers kills carters and also why his numbers from 0-3 feet were noticeably better.

[etopn23]

Health. Carter had a damn good career but he never was consistently elite after what happened in Toronto. He was great for a couple of years in New Jersey though.

People who say he didn't have a work ethic... That jump shot of his didn't come out of nowhere.

[Quotatious]

People who say he didn't have a work ethic... That jump shot of his didn't come out of nowhere.

I didn't say he didn't have a work ethic. I said he didn't have a work ethic like Kobe. That's a big difference, because Kobe might have the best work ethic in NBA history.

Oh, by the way, as far as health - Carter played 727 of 820 possible regular season games in his prime between 1999-00 and 2008-09. That's almost 89%. During the same timespan, Bryant played 748 RS games. Very small difference. The narrative that Carter was injury prone is clearly false. The thing is, that one serious knee injury (he had a surgery on it in 2002, IIRC) robbed him of some of that freakish athleticism he had during his best seasons in 2000 and 2001. That being said, if he had Kobe-like work ethic, he'd be able to compensate for it. Bryant frequently played through several injuries and it rarely affected his level of performance in a significant way.

[Blackfyre]

Kobe's work ethic and drive is much better. Vince was incredibly talented (probably a little more so than Kobe), but IIRC, shortly after he was traded to the Nets, he admitted that he didn't always work hard when he was in Toronto. Carter also had a serious knee injury in 2002 (IIRC also had problems with his ankle).

Carter was clearly better than Kobe during the 1999-00 season, and I'd say also during the 2000-01 regular season (Kobe was better in the '01 playoffs, and I'd give him the edge overall, but VC was IMO better in the RS).

What supports your claim that Vince was better in 01 RS ? Kobe scored more with the same efficiency, had better per 36 rebounding and assist numbers, plus he was chosen to second defensive team that year and this wasn't one of those reputation votes.

[Quotatious]

What supports your claim that Vince was better in 01 RS ? Kobe scored more with the same efficiency, had better per 36 rebounding and assist numbers, plus he was chosen to second defensive team that year and this wasn't one of those reputation votes.

Vince had better advanced boxscore, he did that as the sole focal point of his team's offense, didn't have near-peak Shaq on his team to help him carry the load (at that point in Kobe's career, I believe that having Shaq helped him more than it hindered him in terms of raw numbers). Vince had better on/off impact, too (+11.6 to +8.8 - even on defense, Vince was a clear positive).

Also, Carter played 7 more games, with their level of play being so close, I think it matters.

It's really close and I can't fault you for taking Kobe even for the regular season, I just prefer VC for that RS (admittedly, Kobe's amazing postseason makes him better overall). It's possible to make arguments for both players (even different versions of RAPM support different guy - one year NPI has Kobe ahead, xRAPM has Carter ahead).

[cpower]

a combination of work ethic, injuries and weaker teams. If you had switched Kobe/Carter I believe their career path would end up very different.

[wowski]

This was back in 04 while still with the Raps

Asked yesterday after a morning workout at the Air Canada Centre whether he was happy with his game — his scoring average is fully 10 points below his best, and he's spent significant periods of time on the bench — Carter said simply, "It's fine."

But the 6-foot-6 swingman was pressed on whether or not he intended to try to get to the basket more frequently, a move that can force other players to foul him, and which could get him to the free-throw line more often.

That was when Carter declared: "I don't want to dunk any more."

There was a brief silence in the group of reporters surrounding him, and then Carter was asked why.

"For what?" he said. "You can make a lay-up and get fouled."

But, it was pointed out, Carter isn't getting to the free-throw line as often as usual, just 3.18 times a game.

Last season, he averaged 5.71 trips a game to the line.

"Sorry," he replied. "I'll work on it."

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/11/23/727416.html

I think that article sums it up. That interview, in realgm parlance, shows that he wasn't an alpha.

[JLei]

Skill wise. Mostly just ball handling and footwork in the post. But that's what made Kobe elite over other guards he might have the best handles of any SG his size ever. He was better than some point guards in that respect.

He could always get to his spot and get people off balance for free throw attempts which despite Carter being bigger and being able to jump higher why Kobe always averaged more free throw attempts.

[cpower]

This was back in 04 while still with the Raps

Asked yesterday after a morning workout at the Air Canada Centre whether he was happy with his game — his scoring average is fully 10 points below his best, and he's spent significant periods of time on the bench — Carter said simply, "It's fine."

But the 6-foot-6 swingman was pressed on whether or not he intended to try to get to the basket more frequently, a move that can force other players to foul him, and which could get him to the free-throw line more often.

That was when Carter declared: "I don't want to dunk any more."

There was a brief silence in the group of reporters surrounding him, and then Carter was asked why.

"For what?" he said. "You can make a lay-up and get fouled."

But, it was pointed out, Carter isn't getting to the free-throw line as often as usual, just 3.18 times a game.

Last season, he averaged 5.71 trips a game to the line.

"Sorry," he replied. "I'll work on it."

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/11/23/727416.html

I think that article sums it up. That interview, in realgm parlance, shows that he wasn't an alpha.

LOL you know media hated Carter right? AI once said Carter was his toughest competitor.

[wowski]

This was back in 04 while still with the Raps

Asked yesterday after a morning workout at the Air Canada Centre whether he was happy with his game — his scoring average is fully 10 points below his best, and he's spent significant periods of time on the bench — Carter said simply, "It's fine."

But the 6-foot-6 swingman was pressed on whether or not he intended to try to get to the basket more frequently, a move that can force other players to foul him, and which could get him to the free-throw line more often.

That was when Carter declared: "I don't want to dunk any more."

There was a brief silence in the group of reporters surrounding him, and then Carter was asked why.

"For what?" he said. "You can make a lay-up and get fouled."

But, it was pointed out, Carter isn't getting to the free-throw line as often as usual, just 3.18 times a game.

Last season, he averaged 5.71 trips a game to the line.

"Sorry," he replied. "I'll work on it."

http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/11/23/727416.html

I think that article sums it up. That interview, in realgm parlance, shows that he wasn't an alpha.

LOL you know media hated Carter right? AI once said Carter was his toughest competitor.

LOL I don't know how the "media-hate" (which is unsubstantiated) is related to the article I posted. Those were direct quotes from Vince himself, not from any analysis or from anonymous sources. Quotes that were never challenged. It was even supported further by Vince's pronouncements later on. And the stats are what it is. No amount of spin would make his stats appear worse or better than what it was at the time.

[Illmatic12]

defense, significantly better playmaker/creator, better under-the-line shooter, much better ball-handler, post-up game/mid-range game, much better at drawing fouls and getting to line, better finisher. i'm not convinced that vc was the better basketball athlete. kobe was quicker and had a better first step and i think this is a big part of why his free-throw rate numbers kills carters and also why his numbers from 0-3 feet were noticeably better.

VC easily had more eyepopping leaping ability. But Kobe was physically stronger (especially core strength) and knew how to post up. Both were very good, but different approaches to the game and Kobe's high skill and fundamentals held up better over time.

[cpower]

This was back in 04 while still with the Raps



http://slam.canoe.com/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2004/11/23/727416.html

I think that article sums it up. That interview, in realgm parlance, shows that he wasn't an alpha.

LOL you know media hated Carter right? AI once said Carter was his toughest competitor.

LOL I don't know how the "media-hate" (which is unsubstantiated) is related to the article I posted. Those were direct quotes from Vince himself, not from any analysis or from anonymous sources. Quotes that were never challenged. It was even supported further by Vince's pronouncements later on. And the stats are what it is. No amount of spin would make his stats appear worse or better than what it was at the time.

He was frustrated and he was a guy who doesn't hide his thoughts. Imagine he had Shaq by his side instead of 37 year old Oakley. I have no problem with him leaving the raptors although he could have handled in a prettier way.

[NO-KG-AI]

Aggression goes a long way. Sometimes shooting ability gets in the way for some guys, because you can coax them into shooting instead of physically dominating you like they are capable of.

Kobe might takes some bad shots, but he was way more aggressive about getting to his comfortable spots than Vince was.