Lebron vs Magic-who do you rank higher all-time?

[mysticOscar]

I think LeBron right now is sitting on the bubble with him. He is by far the best player I have ever seen play and I have him currently ranked top 3-4 all time. 1 more championship/MVP/Finals MVP award and he will move into my number 2 spot behind MJ. 2 more champiobnships/MVPs/Finals MVPs and I will say LeBron has edged out Jordan for #1.

I don't understand why the bar is set lower for Lebron to pass all time greats either. People here say Lebron only needs two more rings...and bam, he passes MJ? I wish someone would explain to me why Lebron only need 4 rings to pass Jordan, who has 6? Strange logic.

Its called present bias....

When Shaq was dominating i remember everyone saying goat...kobe had the same....

At the moment everyone remembers all the great things Lebron does within the games...so ppl know each story behind his stats....while the older players are fading from the memory or have not seen them at all .. they just see stats

[MagicFan32]

lebrons better than magic and should be rated higher i don't think it's even debateable either
the only advantage for magic is "ringzzzzzzzz" aka the worst argument

This statement that really bothers me....better at what? Theres many things that Magic is better at and things that Lebron is better at.

You mean overall? How do you determine that? Do u have a exact measure of how much better Lebron is defensively compared to Magic then u ADD the exact measure that Magic is better at with offense then you ADD the exact measure intangibles that Lebron or Magic bring more on then you ADD how much the exact measure that Magic or Lebron makes there teammates better and so forth??

I mean its not like there is a hugh difference statically in regards to there regular season and playoff season dominance....all we know is that they were dominant in there respective eras

What you can measure tho is there achievements in what matter in the NBA. finals mvp and rings

Better at basketball.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=johnsma02&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Sure Magics shooting "efficiency" is better, but lebron has taken almost 7,000 more shots, lebron has better range, lebron also plays in a more sophisticated era and he didn't get to play with hall of famers every year either.

[Colbinii]

Not surprising to see Lebron ahead in a realgm poll over Magic Johnson...a guy who has 3 more rings, and who has been to more finals appearances. Lebron loses another finals series and he's ahead of Magic. The more this guy loses, the higher up he goes on the all time list it seems. Heck if he keeps losing he might past Jordan soon.

I am not sure if this is right responding to you as your name is "RingsDontLie", but you are overrating amount of rings each player has won and ignoring actual on court impact.

I have a couple of questions for you.

In your opinion, is a player that carries his team to the finals but loses less impressive than a player who loses in the ECF?

If a player is better in the post-season but has a lesser team around him, and manages to get to the finals twice while losing to a vastly superior team in each game less impressive than winning two finals while being the favorite to win?

I am not saying that looking at impact over accolades is a better way to judge a player, but why do you weigh rings so much more than basketball impact? Rings is much more team oriented than individual talent.

[mdonnelly1989]

LeBron has the better peak, prime, and comparable longevity. Magic's case rests pretty much on rings. There's weight to that argument, but my criteria LeBron's ahead.

This.

LeBron James is just a better/more dominant/more complete basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Magic played almost his entire career on historically stacked teams in a weak conference. Sure, he led a not-so-great team to the finals in 1991, but what LeBron did in 2007, carrying that really weak Cavs team to the finals, is even more impressive in my opinion.

LeBron is IMO about as good as Magic on offense (James is the better scorer, Johnson the better playmaker, but both guys excel in both areas), but LeBron is easily better on defense, and even the biggest Magic fan probably wouldn't argue with that (they would only argue that Magic was clearly better on offense - I would disagree with that - even if Magic is better offensively, it's a very small difference, both are top 5 all-time).

I had actually been curious about who was the better player on offense for a while now. There was a study done saying the average assist is worth 2.3 points per assist when you account for 3's. And over the span of 30 years.

So what I did was took PPG + 2.3(X) x as a deravitive for the amount of assists for each player to see how many points they were during their peak/prime. I did Magic from 1980-1990 for his prime. And Lebron from 2005 to current.

Magic amount of PPG = 46 points per game.

Lebron's amount of PPG = 43 points per game.

So it does appear that Magic may have been slightly more value on the offensive side. However as you had eluded to Lebron is a borderline top 5 defensive SF of all time and probably a Top 25 defensive player ever....and Magic was always known for being a defensive liability at times.

So there is NO question as to who was the better all around player.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think LeBron right now is sitting on the bubble with him. He is by far the best player I have ever seen play and I have him currently ranked top 3-4 all time. 1 more championship/MVP/Finals MVP award and he will move into my number 2 spot behind MJ. 2 more champiobnships/MVPs/Finals MVPs and I will say LeBron has edged out Jordan for #1.

I don't understand why the bar is set lower for Lebron to pass all time greats either. People here say Lebron only needs two more rings...and bam, he passes MJ? I wish someone would explain to me why Lebron only need 4 rings to pass Jordan, who has 6? Strange logic.

Its called present bias....

When Shaq was dominating i remember everyone saying goat...kobe had the same....

At the moment everyone remembers all the great things Lebron does within the games...so ppl know each story behind his stats....while the older players are fading from the memory or have not seen them at all .. they just see stats

Every generation has its GOAT. Without exception.

The people who grew up with Jordan as the GOAT are now going through new generations with a new GOAT for the first time, and this is all new to them. They're now going through what people who grew up with their GOATs went through. Every generation is going to say the guy they grew up watching is the greatest. They have an emotional connection that they don't have to past players. I myself have advocated for GIES (Greatest I've Ever Seen) rather than GOAT for years, because people aren't really talking about "all time," nor do they care for the most part. They're really talking about GIES, yet they continue to cling to the GOAT label even when explicitly saying they're only talking about "of the players they watched," rather than "of everyone who's ever played the game."

[BasketballFan7]

LeBron has the better peak, prime, and comparable longevity. Magic's case rests pretty much on rings. There's weight to that argument, but my criteria LeBron's ahead.

This.

LeBron James is just a better/more dominant/more complete basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Magic played almost his entire career on historically stacked teams in a weak conference. Sure, he led a not-so-great team to the finals in 1991, but what LeBron did in 2007, carrying that really weak Cavs team to the finals, is even more impressive in my opinion.

LeBron is IMO about as good as Magic on offense (James is the better scorer, Johnson the better playmaker, but both guys excel in both areas), but LeBron is easily better on defense, and even the biggest Magic fan probably wouldn't argue with that (they would only argue that Magic was clearly better on offense - I would disagree with that - even if Magic is better offensively, it's a very small difference, both are top 5 all-time).

I had actually been curious about who was the better player on offense for a while now. There was a study done saying the average assist is worth 2.3 points per assist when you account for 3's. And over the span of 30 years.

So what I did was took PPG + 2.3(X) x as a deravitive for the amount of assists for each player to see how many points they were during their peak/prime. I did Magic from 1980-1990 for his prime. And Lebron from 2005 to current.

Magic amount of PPG = 46 points per game.

Lebron's amount of PPG = 43 points per game.

So it does appear that Magic may have been slightly more value on the offensive side. However as you had eluded to Lebron is a borderline top 5 defensive SF of all time and probably a Top 25 defensive player ever....and Magic was always known for being a defensive liability at times.

So there is NO question as to who was the better all around player.

Meh, I don't think it is right to evaluate assists in that manner. Shots are going to be taken, and made, with or without somebody passing the ball. What needs to be assessed is how much efficiency the distributor adds to the offense, rather than crediting him for a raw point total.

Obviously, Magic's offensive boost may be bigger than the x 2.3 variable, but then you have guys like Rondo getting credited for ~35 ppg with actual efficiency not rising, where the bucket would have been scored by a teammate on similar efficiency regarless (or better efficiency, as many gyards pad assist numbers at the end of a shot clock, hoping for a teammate to bail them out on a low% shot).

[mdonnelly1989]

This.

LeBron James is just a better/more dominant/more complete basketball player than Magic Johnson.

Magic played almost his entire career on historically stacked teams in a weak conference. Sure, he led a not-so-great team to the finals in 1991, but what LeBron did in 2007, carrying that really weak Cavs team to the finals, is even more impressive in my opinion.

LeBron is IMO about as good as Magic on offense (James is the better scorer, Johnson the better playmaker, but both guys excel in both areas), but LeBron is easily better on defense, and even the biggest Magic fan probably wouldn't argue with that (they would only argue that Magic was clearly better on offense - I would disagree with that - even if Magic is better offensively, it's a very small difference, both are top 5 all-time).

I had actually been curious about who was the better player on offense for a while now. There was a study done saying the average assist is worth 2.3 points per assist when you account for 3's. And over the span of 30 years.

So what I did was took PPG + 2.3(X) x as a deravitive for the amount of assists for each player to see how many points they were during their peak/prime. I did Magic from 1980-1990 for his prime. And Lebron from 2005 to current.

Magic amount of PPG = 46 points per game.

Lebron's amount of PPG = 43 points per game.

So it does appear that Magic may have been slightly more value on the offensive side. However as you had eluded to Lebron is a borderline top 5 defensive SF of all time and probably a Top 25 defensive player ever....and Magic was always known for being a defensive liability at times.

So there is NO question as to who was the better all around player.

Meh, I don't think it is right to evaluate assists in that manner. Shots are going to be taken, and made, with or without somebody passing the ball. What needs to be assessed is how much efficiency the distributor adds to the offense, rather than crediting him for a raw point total.

Obviously, Magic's offensive boost may be bigger than the x 2.3 variable, but then you have guys like Rondo getting credited for ~35 ppg with actual efficiency not rising, where the bucket would have been scored by a teammate on similar efficiency regardless (or better efficiency, as many guards pad assist numbers at the end of a shot clock, hoping for a teammate to bail them out on a low% shot).

I think you can take into account how many points the player is worth as well as efficiency. Also have to take into account clutch situations as well and I'm sure LBJ is at the top in league history. Even if he hasn't hit game winners, I think I seen the stats back up his clutch situations up by 5 or down by 5 with 5 minutes to go.

[nurseryc]

Lebron is the greatest player ive ever seen.

So you weren't around to see Magic play?

[mysticOscar]

Some people are just full of hypocrisy and they don't realise it....

if they really want to just base the greatest all time rank on purely stats and not achievemets...

Then why dont they have Chris Paul close to your top 5? Or why is David Robinson, Barkley, Malone not on your top 10?

Oh wait this only applies for Lebron right????

But wait, if Lebron matches or gets close to MJ's achievements in 6 finals mvp and 6 rings....you guys are ready to consider him as GOAT?? Lebron statically will not match MJ....but you are ready to give him the GOAT title??

Everyone else has to dominate statically + have the achievements....but Lebron gets excuses...he gets context for his failures...Lebron is given special rules

Hypocrites

[bballexpert]

Some people are just full of hypocrisy and they don't realise it....

if they really want to just base the greatest all time rank on purely stats and not achievemets...

Then why dont they have Chris Paul close to your top 5? Or why is David Robinson, Barkley, Malone not on your top 10?

Oh wait this only applies for Lebron right????

But wait, if Lebron matches or gets close to MJ's achievements in 6 finals mvp and 6 rings....you guys are ready to consider him as GOAT?? Lebron statically will not match MJ....but you are ready to give him the GOAT title??

Everyone else has to dominate statically + have the achievements....but Lebron gets excuses...he gets context for his failures...Lebron is given special rules

Hypocrites

Dont worry the same **** will happen to him that happen to Kobe people were really on his joke now look at them tearing him down. People are about the now i mean Shaq was going to be goat but look how that ended for him but when he as peak every one was about the dude because he was unstoppable. I guess its better to rank or talk about greatness when a person is retired or on there way out because if they are still on fire it just gives them a edge because just wait till they slow down people jump ship.

[semi-sentient]

Meh, I don't think it is right to evaluate assists in that manner. Shots are going to be taken, and made, with or without somebody passing the ball. What needs to be assessed is how much efficiency the distributor adds to the offense, rather than crediting him for a raw point total.

Obviously, Magic's offensive boost may be bigger than the x 2.3 variable, but then you have guys like Rondo getting credited for ~35 ppg with actual efficiency not rising, where the bucket would have been scored by a teammate on similar efficiency regarless (or better efficiency, as many gyards pad assist numbers at the end of a shot clock, hoping for a teammate to bail them out on a low% shot).

I would imagine that since the Lakers regularly had an elite offense (in both the RS and PS) that you could easily argue Magic add plenty of efficiency to their offense. It's not just about totaling up points + assists in some secret formula. Obviously Magic is going to be among the best ever when it comes to that. What I find more important is how the overall offense functions, and with Magic running the show we know that the Lakers were an absolutely elite offense where guys were getting easy shots. This is important because some players rack up assists by way of dominating the ball, but does the offense as a whole really benefit from it? Are guys getting layups or uncontested shots in general? This was pretty much the case with the Lakers, and it's why I cringe when I hear about LeBron and Magic being made of the same mold as playmakers.

As for Rondo, take a look at the Celtics offense over the years. They were mostly bad to mediocre, while managing only a couple of seasons of being good (top 10) but never really reaching that elite status (despite having some really nice offensive players). To me that's clearly a case of a player who gets assists by way of dominating the ball, but with the offense seeing a noteworthy improvement (and I'd say that you could replace Rondo with other PG's and see much better results).

[barelyawake]

There are no stats for intelligence or heart. I wish there were, because these two players are far apart on those scales.

However, I'm fairly sick of the meme that Magic was a poor defender. First, he was asked to be a transition player. The goal was to steal or board, and then fast break. And as such, Magic was one of the greatest help defenders ever. Was he as good as LeBron defensively? No. Was he a liability? Absolutely not. Again, the strategy, by Riley, was to watch for moments to incite the fast break.

Magic was 7th in defensive win shares one year and 50 something in that stat all time (last I checked). He's also top 15% in defensive rating in NBA history of players who played over 3000 minutes. He lead the league in steals twice and is top 20 in that regard. And he certainly shutdown players when asked to.

Magic also didn't play in a watered-down era, in a weak conference, with no hard fouls and flopping. He also played in an era where they called traveling, unlike LeBron's "go-to-move," the euro-step, crab dribble. LeBron's signature move could not have happened in Magic's era (head down, four steps, freight train into the lane), because centers and Oakley would have put him on his ass the first time he did, and LeBron wouldn't try it again. And when LeBron has faced such contact (even the weak contact in this era), he has historically avoided the lane over the years and become a jump shooter.

Magic, on the other hand, had an array of ball and hand fakes to give him the space to score without being clobbered. He would absolutely befuddle this age of players who have never seen anything remotely resembling a player the size of a power forward who can string ball and eye fakes together with no look passes. Because LeBron certainly isn't that guy.

[Jedi32]

This is magic by a mile to me. Like someone else said he's the smartest player I have ever seen and he's the best player I have ever laid eyes on. Offense and getting the most out of teammates to me there is no comparison and as far as defense magic's gets underrated and lebron's get's overrated.

[mischievous]

More or less a tossup for me, Lebron has imo 3-4 seasons better than any magic version although not by much, and his longevity is roughly equal. Still though, i think early Magic is better than early Lebron meaning their first 3-5 seasons so that counts for something, and there is the accolade edge in favor of Magic, something that i do consider in my evaluation. With a gun to my head i'd probably lean slightly in Lebron's favor, but i wouldn't argue one bit if someone chose the great Magic Johnson here. One more elite season from Lebron and this becomes clearly Lebron to me. Rings matter but i think after the 1st 2-3 they have diminishing returns depending on your performance though. Something else to consider about Magic's 5 rings is that Kareem was clearly the best player for the 1st ring and most likely for the 2nd as well. Its nice to come into the league having a Prime Kareem, and a top 5 GOAT coach at your side.

[bballexpert]

More or less a tossup for me, Lebron has imo 3-4 seasons better than any magic version although not by much, and his longevity is roughly equal. Still though, i think early Magic is better than early Lebron meaning their first 3-5 seasons so that counts for something, and there is the accolade edge in favor of Magic, something that i do consider in my evaluation. With a gun to my head i'd probably lean slightly in Lebron's favor, but i wouldn't argue one bit if someone chose the great Magic Johnson here. One more elite season from Lebron and this becomes clearly Lebron to me. Rings matter but i think after the 1st 2-3 they have diminishing returns depending on your performance though. Something else to consider about Magic's 5 rings is that Kareem was clearly the best player for the 1st ring and most likely for the 2nd as well. Its nice to come into the league having a Prime Kareem, and a top 5 GOAT coach at your side.

This post is kinda bull because there no way in hell that has that many season better then 1987 Magic if any. Lebron best could not get him past the **** Orlando sure he scored a lot but his great defense talked about did not exist. Magic was Mvp and final mvp and had one of the best finales ever most likely better then any finales that James has had. Not to mention Magic did it against the Cletics which was a atg team and proven team at that.

[mischievous]

More or less a tossup for me, Lebron has imo 3-4 seasons better than any magic version although not by much, and his longevity is roughly equal. Still though, i think early Magic is better than early Lebron meaning their first 3-5 seasons so that counts for something, and there is the accolade edge in favor of Magic, something that i do consider in my evaluation. With a gun to my head i'd probably lean slightly in Lebron's favor, but i wouldn't argue one bit if someone chose the great Magic Johnson here. One more elite season from Lebron and this becomes clearly Lebron to me. Rings matter but i think after the 1st 2-3 they have diminishing returns depending on your performance though. Something else to consider about Magic's 5 rings is that Kareem was clearly the best player for the 1st ring and most likely for the 2nd as well. Its nice to come into the league having a Prime Kareem, and a top 5 GOAT coach at your side.

This post is kinda bull because there no way in hell that has that many season better then 1987 Magic if any. Lebron best could not get him past the **** Orlando sure he scored a lot but his great defense talked about did not exist. Magic was Mvp and final mvp and had one of the best finales ever most likely better then any finales that James has had. Not to mention Magic did it against the Cletics which was a atg team and proven team at that.

Lebron's teammates were badly outclassed in that Magic series and Lebron averaged 39 8 8 on 60+ ts% so try again. And no it's not bull at all to take 09, 12 & 13 Lebron over peak magic. I think those 3 seasons are all pretty close to one another and his 2010 season is at least as good as peak Magic if not better.

[Quotatious]

This post is kinda bull because there no way in hell that has that many season better then 1987 Magic if any. Lebron best could not get him past the **** Orlando sure he scored a lot but his great defense talked about did not exist. Magic was Mvp and final mvp and had one of the best finales ever most likely better then any finales that James has had. Not to mention Magic did it against the Cletics which was a atg team and proven team at that.

Criticizing LeBron's defense when we're comparing him to Magic Johnson is just wrong. Magic was about league average defensively. Really nothing special. Even if you think that Magic was better offensively, that gap is really nothing compared to the advantage that LeBron has on defense (I mean when prime LeBron played defense on his usual level, compared to prime Magic playing defense on his usual level, LBJ was far better, just like Jordan was far better than Magic on D).

Lebron's teammates were badly outclassed in that Magic series and Lebron averaged 39 8 8 on 60+ ts% so try again. And no it's not bull at all to take 09, 12 & 13 Lebron over peak magic. I think those 3 seasons are all pretty close to one another and his 2010 season is at least as good as peak Magic if not better.

I agree. I think peak Magic (1987) was somewhere around the level of 2014 LeBron. Absolutely fantastic player, but James was just better/more complete in his best seasons (and 2014 was just his 5th best season in my opinion).

Someone would really have to hate LeBron to think that his 2009 ECF series was anything less than phenomenal. I think his defense wasn't very good (but nothing horrible, either, I'd say about average), but 39/8/8 on 59% TS is at least as good as any series that Magic had during his career (and I can't really criticize LeBron for the fact that his team lost, because it's not his fault that Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs frontcourt - was LeBron supposed to produce like he actually did AND guard Dwight at the same time? I know that 2009 LeBron was near-superhuman in terms of athleticism, but it's just ridiculous to expect him to guard a guy who's even bigger and stronger than him, and naturally a post player, without getting into foul trouble, and still scoring and creating so much on offense).

[JordansBulls]

I agree. I think peak Magic (1987) was somewhere around the level of 2014 LeBron. Absolutely fantastic player, but James was just better/more complete in his best seasons (and 2014 was just his 5th best season in my opinion).

Someone would really have to hate LeBron to think that his 2009 ECF series was anything less than phenomenal. I think his defense wasn't very good (but nothing horrible, either, I'd say about average), but 39/8/8 on 59% TS is at least as good as any series that Magic had during his career (and I can't really criticize LeBron for the fact that his team lost, because it's not his fault that Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs frontcourt - was LeBron supposed to produce like he actually did AND guard Dwight at the same time? I know that 2009 LeBron was near-superhuman in terms of athleticism, but it's just ridiculous to expect him to guard a guy who's even bigger and stronger than him, and naturally a post player, without getting into foul trouble, and still scoring and creating so much on offense).

I would say compare Magic's 1990 Season and playoffs to Lebron's 2009 Season and playoffs since both won MVP and both loss with HCA despite putting up good numbers in the series they lost.

[Quotatious]

I would say compare Magic's 1990 Season and playoffs to Lebron's 2009 Season and playoffs since both won MVP and both loss with HCA despite putting up good numbers in the series they lost.

This works, too, because 1990 was still Magic at his peak level as a player (actually even more complete compared to 1987 because he already had a decent 3-point shot in 1990, actually even in 1989, and also became a 90% FT shooter).

[bballexpert]

This post is kinda bull because there no way in hell that has that many season better then 1987 Magic if any. Lebron best could not get him past the **** Orlando sure he scored a lot but his great defense talked about did not exist. Magic was Mvp and final mvp and had one of the best finales ever most likely better then any finales that James has had. Not to mention Magic did it against the Cletics which was a atg team and proven team at that.

Criticizing LeBron's defense when we're comparing him to Magic Johnson is just wrong. Magic was about league average defensively. Really nothing special. Even if you think that Magic was better offensively, that gap is really nothing compared to the advantage that LeBron has on defense (I mean when prime LeBron played defense on his usual level, compared to prime Magic playing defense on his usual level, LBJ was far better, just like Jordan was far better than Magic on D).

Lebron's teammates were badly outclassed in that Magic series and Lebron averaged 39 8 8 on 60+ ts% so try again. And no it's not bull at all to take 09, 12 & 13 Lebron over peak magic. I think those 3 seasons are all pretty close to one another and his 2010 season is at least as good as peak Magic if not better.

I agree. I think peak Magic (1987) was somewhere around the level of 2014 LeBron. Absolutely fantastic player, but James was just better/more complete in his best seasons (and 2014 was just his 5th best season in my opinion).

Someone would really have to hate LeBron to think that his 2009 ECF series was anything less than phenomenal. I think his defense wasn't very good (but nothing horrible, either, I'd say about average), but 39/8/8 on 59% TS is at least as good as any series that Magic had during his career (and I can't really criticize LeBron for the fact that his team lost, because it's not his fault that Dwight Howard destroyed the Cavs frontcourt - was LeBron supposed to produce like he actually did AND guard Dwight at the same time? I know that 2009 LeBron was near-superhuman in terms of athleticism, but it's just ridiculous to expect him to guard a guy who's even bigger and stronger than him, and naturally a post player, without getting into foul trouble, and still scoring and creating so much on offense).

Magic Johnson impact on the 1987 finales is just as good as that 2009 series for James. I mean you have Magic going 26/8/13/2 590ts against a alltime great team and making his team offense unstoppable. I think Magic impact on games and winning is the same as James is in there peaks. James needs the ball in his hands to make the most impact but that is not always the best thing. Magic can make people around him better even if they are great players he can improve them. Lebron impact on higher talent is not the same as Magic and people act like he is so much higher then Magic why is all i am asking. Magic ran the floor better then anybody ever did and is the best at getting the most out of what is around him and does not need ball in his hand as much to do it. Lebron is a top10 player but to act like Magic is not in the same impact on the game i think is wrong.