Lebron vs Magic-who do you rank higher all-time?

[Legemeton]

i personally don't care for lebrons antics, and how the league baby's him but he is already a borderline top 5 player of all time, forget all the rings bull, it's a garbage argument

He's at my 9th or 10th all time but if you don't go by rings then how exactly do you rate players if they should be on your top 10 or not? To me hes a borderline top 10 player

if rings is the argument then bill russell should be everyones no.1

He's in my top 5 obviously however rings aren't solely for the ranking but it has a large impact on the ranking. If we're going by stats Wilt is the Wayne Gretzy of the game. Hell even Elgin baylor would be better than Lebron James and I don't think that.
You have to praise winning, you have to. Thats what makes a player great.
A player could show greatness but unless he proves it he dosen't belong in the top 20 or top 25.

Its like Lebron before 2012. Why the hell are we calling him 'King' when he hasn't won any championships? Sure he had amazing years but he was capped before he won in 2012, the only ways to increase his ranking is to win more in the playoffs.

[barelyawake]

The "Magic can't play D" meme came from two things. One, Magic had trouble with the speedy points. True. So, btw, does LeBron. Magic was much better guarding centers than the quickest points -- especially later in his career. But, he was actually a very good defender of small forwards through centers, when asked to do so.

Two, the system of the Showtime Lakers wasn't to slow the pace, via defense, it was to speed the pace, via tips, steals, misses and boards. People were comparing the Celtics to the Lakers when they talk about Magic playing defense. They had never seen a system like the Lakers. And Magic's role most of that time was to try to cause a steal; funnel the player into Kareem; position himself for the board; start the fastbreak. The Lakers' defense was offense by design, not like say Nash who literally couldn't play defense.

As I said, Magic was literally the smartest player I've ever seen. LeBron is one of the most physically gifted players ever. I'll take the smart guy's ability to figure out how to win, because as they used to say, "A pass travels faster than feet ever could."

[afox]

i personally don't care for lebrons antics, and how the league baby's him but he is already a borderline top 5 player of all time, forget all the rings bull, it's a garbage argument

He's at my 9th or 10th all time but if you don't go by rings then how exactly do you rate players if they should be on your top 10 or not? To me hes a borderline top 10 player

if rings is the argument then bill russell should be everyones no.1

Bron fans always say this sh*t about Russell...It's not just rings....It's with everything else being equal....and with big Russ that's not the case....Most everyone else has similar stats......Russells numbers aren't good enough....and were not talking all time number one...just the diff between Magic and James...

[afox]

Not surprising to see Lebron ahead in a realgm poll over Magic Johnson...a guy who has 3 more rings, and who has been to more finals appearances. Lebron loses another finals series and he's ahead of Magic. The more this guy loses, the higher up he goes on the all time list it seems. Heck if he keeps losing he might past Jordan soon.

LeBron right now is 30. And he's already been to the finals as many times as Jordan did in his entire career.

But I'm sure in your upside down reasoning that's proof that he's a loser.

So just getting to the Finals is the measuring stick now?....Magic still wins the argument then....
James is not a loser...just not a world champion...
Although the last thing he did on a court was....lose...

[bballexpert]

The "Magic can't play D" meme came from two things. One, Magic had trouble with the speedy points. True. So, btw, does LeBron. Magic was much better guarding centers than the quickest points -- especially later in his career. But, he was actually a very good defender of small forwards through centers, when asked to do so.

Two, the system of the Showtime Lakers wasn't to slow the pace, via defense, it was to speed the pace, via tips, steals, misses and boards. People were comparing the Celtics to the Lakers when they talk about Magic playing defense. They had never seen a system like the Lakers. And Magic's role most of that time was to try to cause a steal; funnel the player into Kareem; position himself for the board; start the fastbreak. The Lakers' defense was offense by design, not like say Nash who literally couldn't play defense.

As I said, Magic was literally the smartest player I've ever seen. LeBron is one of the most physically gifted players ever. I'll take the smart guy's ability to figure out how to win, because as they used to say, "A pass travels faster than feet ever could."

This is a point i have not seen brought up very much and when it comes to bigger guys Magic was pretty good at guarding. I mean he was huge for a pg not to mention those steals played into his system as you have said.

[magicmerl]

Not surprising to see Lebron ahead in a realgm poll over Magic Johnson...a guy who has 3 more rings, and who has been to more finals appearances. Lebron loses another finals series and he's ahead of Magic. The more this guy loses, the higher up he goes on the all time list it seems. Heck if he keeps losing he might past Jordan soon.

LeBron right now is 30. And he's already been to the finals as many times as Jordan did in his entire career.

But I'm sure in your upside down reasoning that's proof that he's a loser.

So just getting to the Finals is the measuring stick now?....Magic still wins the argument then....

No, clearly a championship is better. But there's a disingenuous narrative that losing in the finals is somehow worse than losing in the regular season or not even making the playoffs. Which is complete and utter BS, and seems contrived for the spurious reason of attempting to make Jordan historically unassailable.

Making the finals is a step below winning a ring. Magic lost 4 times in the finals.

James is not a loser...just not a world champion...
Although the last thing he did on a court was....lose...

I'm not a racist but .... (goes on to say racist thing).

You appear to be speaking out of both sides of your face there.

[bballexpert]

LeBron right now is 30. And he's already been to the finals as many times as Jordan did in his entire career.

But I'm sure in your upside down reasoning that's proof that he's a loser.

So just getting to the Finals is the measuring stick now?....Magic still wins the argument then....

No, clearly a championship is better. But there's a disingenuous narrative that losing in the finals is somehow worse than losing in the regular season or not even making the playoffs. Which is complete and utter BS, and seems contrived for the spurious reason of attempting to make Jordan historically unassailable.

Making the finals is a step below winning a ring. Magic lost 4 times in the finals.

James is not a loser...just not a world champion...
Although the last thing he did on a court was....lose...

I'm not a racist but .... (goes on to say racist thing).

You appear to be speaking out of both sides of your face there.

Well if you look at the finales you could argue that magic championship final appearance in 1987-1988 were as good if not better then Lebron was in 2012-2013 numbers can go either way. Not to mention if you see how they performed when they were younger Magic had amazing finales and did not have the shut downs of a 2007 or 2011 on his play. They both came from weaker conferences although Magic had more talent in his division he had a better team to balance it out. If you look at the final performances i still give it to Magic against the best comp he tended to shine more also was amazing out the gate with that 1980's performance he had.

[afox]

Who brings race in here...??

[afox]

Who brings race in here...??

There's no other narrative....James hasn't won as many titles as most of the all time greats...top ten that is...2nd place is great but its still not winning....

[bballexpert]

Who brings race in here...??

There's no other narrative....James hasn't won as many titles as most of the all time greats...top ten that is...2nd place is great but its still not winning....

Think what he meant was you said Lebron was a winner but then said he was not a championship. So it is like saying i am not a racist but then you say something racist i doubt the guy is calling you racist i think thats what he meant.

[Jedi32]

The "Magic can't play D" meme came from two things. One, Magic had trouble with the speedy points. True. So, btw, does LeBron. Magic was much better guarding centers than the quickest points -- especially later in his career. But, he was actually a very good defender of small forwards through centers, when asked to do so.

Two, the system of the Showtime Lakers wasn't to slow the pace, via defense, it was to speed the pace, via tips, steals, misses and boards. People were comparing the Celtics to the Lakers when they talk about Magic playing defense. They had never seen a system like the Lakers. And Magic's role most of that time was to try to cause a steal; funnel the player into Kareem; position himself for the board; start the fastbreak. The Lakers' defense was offense by design, not like say Nash who literally couldn't play defense.

As I said, Magic was literally the smartest player I've ever seen. LeBron is one of the most physically gifted players ever. I'll take the smart guy's ability to figure out how to win, because as they used to say, "A pass travels faster than feet ever could."

This should be and 1'd a thousand times. I got so tired of hearing that bull about magic and defense. I executed the scheme put in place by his coach just let other stars have

[afox]

Who brings race in here...??

There's no other narrative....James hasn't won as many titles as most of the all time greats...top ten that is...2nd place is great but its still not winning....

Think what he meant was you said Lebron was a winner but then said he was not a championship. So it is like saying i am not a racist but then you say something racist i doubt the guy is calling you racist i think thats what he meant.

I know what he meant...its still f'd up...I was being shi**y just to be sh**y to James....it was tongue in cheek....guys in here think theyre so smart they know who I am....explaining things to me....lol...

[bballexpert]

Well it seems that Magic is gaining some ground right now its like 50 50 right now. You know as i have read through a lot of this post i can not help but wonder how Lebron 2009 season is ranked so highly i mean some are saying it is behind MJ. Its like they forgot about Shaq which is kinda with out doubt better and very comparable ones in Magic 1987,Hakeem 1994, Duncan 2003, and few others. I mean if look at how it was rated when it happen no one was putting it high until like this year never consider be best peak since MJ i has been Shaq who had that claim. More it is brought up though more higher in rating it gets which is confusing for me for the most part. I mean he had a great game against the Magic and great season but who were great teams he went up against the east cost had Dwight and thats about it not like his team was super stacked or anything like that either not even favored to win the series before hand.

[Mutnt]

LeBron was clearly better than Magic at multiple points during his career. The gap will only grow larger, I'd assume.

[bballexpert]

LeBron was clearly better than Magic at multiple points during his career. The gap will only grow larger, I'd assume.

I am sure being a huge fan of his does not sway your opinion at all i am not a fan so i have the bias but my god. I got a quick question what is your top 10 and were do you rank Lebron this pretty much answer how much you over or under rate him.

[Ballerhogger]

LeBron was clearly better than Magic at multiple points during his career. The gap will only grow larger, I'd assume.

Based on what?

[bballexpert]

LeBron was clearly better than Magic at multiple points during his career. The gap will only grow larger, I'd assume.

Based on what?

Most likely never took the time to watch Magic play and it has been 20 years since magic played in the league. People are about the now and not about the past i guess i say Magic game was better but it is not clearly either way.

[Mutnt]

LeBron was clearly better than Magic at multiple points during his career. The gap will only grow larger, I'd assume.

Based on what?

Versatility and superior defense. Offensively it's up for debate. Of course I acknowledge Magic to be one of the best, if not the best, playmaker in NBA history. Obviously his prowess to facilitate an offense and get players good shots at a high rate is no doubt valuable. The degree of said value varies, but that's another topic altogether.

[BasketballFan7]

Well it seems that Magic is gaining some ground right now its like 50 50 right now. You know as i have read through a lot of this post i can not help but wonder how Lebron 2009 season is ranked so highly i mean some are saying it is behind MJ. Its like they forgot about Shaq which is kinda with out doubt better and very comparable ones in Magic 1987,Hakeem 1994, Duncan 2003, and few others. I mean if look at how it was rated when it happen no one was putting it high until like this year never consider be best peak since MJ i has been Shaq who had that claim. More it is brought up though more higher in rating it gets which is confusing for me for the most part. I mean he had a great game against the Magic and great season but who were great teams he went up against the east cost had Dwight and thats about it not like his team was super stacked or anything like that either not even favored to win the series before hand.

I don't even think 2009 is his peak. 2012/2013, with 2009 a solid 3rd. 2014 close to that, and then 2010/2015.

My top 5 peaks would include (no order):

2000 Shaq
2013 LeBron
1991 Jordan
1994 Hakeem

But I don't think 2009 James is with these other peaks, even with all of the incredible statistical backing the claim has (and I like statistics).

[Joao Saraiva]

From the players I've seen LeBron is the 2nd best behind MJ (peak wise LeBron might even be 1st, career wise I think Shaq or Duncan for example have a good case - and some others have a case over LBJ on peak too, but not Magic). I saw a lot of games from Kareem but never saw anything from him in the 70s, so I don't feel confident ranking him.

I feel like Magic with a great cast was a better offensive player than LeBron, but LeBron can be a better offensive force when he has to do things by himself.

I'd say they're pretty even offensive wise.

However, LeBron's edge on D is massive. I don't have such a low opinion on Magic's D like some, but LeBron is in a completely diferent level. I've seen better perimeter players than LeBron on D (Pippen or Rodman as SF are good examples, but from the ones I saw LeBron is for sure top 10).

I also have LeBron's peak (09 or 12) ahead of Magic's peak (87).

Therefore I think LeBron is ahead of Magic. Better peak, longevity, and the defensive gap make me pretty sure of it.

I feel that Magic ability to run a offense and the threat he posed on offense makes up for any Defense problems he had compared to Lebron really. I mean Magic ran the greatest offense teams of all time no one controls the pace of the game the same as him. There peaks are pretty close any they play really different game so its kinda hard to say which is better. Shaq peak kinda trashes both Lebron and Magic he was **** unstoppable when he was peak best final performer bar the goat. Duncan totally different he like Russel level Defense impact that could score big when needed to but Duncan was boring so people don't praise him as much.

That's your opinion.

I have peak LeBron (09) really close to MJ, and I'm not even sure who I'd rank #1. Therefore I have LeBron's peak ahead of Shaq. I have Shaq ahead of Magic. I'd say Hakeem, MJ, Duncan, Shaq and LeBron are definitely in the 1st tier from the players I saw, and any order seems acceptable. But no, there is no big gap between any of those guys

Magic did run great offensive teams. Best offensive teams ever? That's arguable. However you can't run the best offensive team ever withtout a fantastic cast. When LeBron was given a very good cast (still not as great as the best ones Magic had) the Heat had fantastic eFG% and ts%:
2012 - 50.5 eFG% and 54.9ts% (4th best in both)
2013 - 55.2 eFG% and 58.8ts% (1st in both)
2014 - 55.4 eFG% and 59ts% (1st in both)

This shows LeBron with very good teammates LeBron can generate tremendous efficiency. Of course offense is more than that, and the Heat were very flawed rebounding wise. But the Heat were still top 5 in ORTG all those years, peaking at #2. For a team with tremendous rebounding problems that is absolutely fantastic.

The gap on D is there and it should be taken into account. I value offense more than defense, but ignoring it is a mistake. LeBron closing the middle of the Heat's D in both 2012 and 2013 is something special. That's a job for big guys, and I don't even remember any other perimeter player doing that. I also can't think of many guys with LeBron's versatility on D, being able to defend fast guards, great forwards and even some Cs. He also rotates much faster than Magic. That's a big plus on any team.

About the finals performances... well LeBron didn't do well in 07 (won't hold that against him), was terrible by his standards in 2011 (still Pippenesque), and played very well from 2012 to 2015. I don't put much emphasis on how great a player is only in the finals, that would be like analyzing less than 1% of their careers and jumping to conclusions. Also not every finals is equal, sometimes there are mismatches or sometimes it's not even the most difficult round in the playoffs. Therefore the finals logic is really flawed.

About Duncan... well he's a boring player comparing to other guys like Shaq, LeBron, MJ or Magic. But I don't give him any less credit for what he did. Anyway the Shaq and Duncan part is completely out of topic.

I put on bold the part of my reply that I feel is relevant to this topic.