Wilt playstyle changing

[70sFan]

I looked for every avaliable tape of Wilt Chamberlain and my conclusion is that he changed his playstyle a few times in his career. I would love to see CavsFTW opinon about my observation.
First, Wilt in college was skinny and superathletic center who based his game on lenght and good looking fadeway. His mobility is amazing (most mobile 7 footer ever). Still a little raw but very talented.
In Philadelphia Warriors he looks bigger and stronger. He had amazing fadeway jumper (most polished and best looking in his career). Very quick for his size. Even if he didn't look that strong (around 260-270 lbs), he didn't have any problems with fighting for position against strong guys like Bellamy or Russell. His famous fingerroll doesn't look as good as later (not great range yet). I didn't see much him on defense during that time.
In San Francisco and Philadelphia 76ers he looks much bigger and stronger. He looked probably at his strongest/most athletic around 1964-1965. Later (around 1967) it seems like he lost some weigh (about 290 lbs). On offense he used mostly his famous banshot and fingerroll (only used fadeway of the glass). Fingerroll became a bigger part of his offensive game down low. Also many up and unders, quick spins and drop steps. For me his low post game looks most polished and skilled in his entire career. He never played facing up. On defense he still looks very mobile (not as mobile as during college/PHW days) and had amazing blocking reach. He didn't like going outside. His bankshot doesn't look as natural, but still pretty efective.
After injury in 1969-70 season he would be never the same player. He looked even heavier and still superstrong, but not as mobile. He was still one of the best defenders in the league and the best rebounder. On offense he became more a finisher player. Great passer and great at fighting for postition. On post up situations he relied almost only on fingerroll and strengh. His bankshot looks mechanical. Sometimes looks like he lacked counter moves. Still dangerous offensive player. Fingerroll looks the best on entire career. I don't know why he lost his touch on turnaround.

I would love to see your opinions about my observation. I don't think everything is true so lets start disscusion

PS: Have you ever seen Wilt setting screens before 1967 year? In Lakers they play many pick and rolls with Wilt, but in his early years I've never seen him doing that...

[70sFan]

Any questions, opinions, critique?

[70sFan]

I would love to see CavsFTW's, Samurai's and other specialists's opinions about my post. I think it's really interesting topic

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I saw the Lakers vs Knicks Wilt films many times before I saw Wilt at any other age and I thought that like say Roy Hibbert that Wilt came out of college as a solidly built man. I wondered where was the alleged super fast athletic man was. Then I saw Wilt as a 76er and saw more athleticism but still did not see a great a super great athlete. Then I saw early 1960s Wilt who had the speed and athleticism like young Kevin Garnett but I don't think young Wilt's basketball skills were as refined as Kevin Garnetts basketball skills. I think young Garnett also could have been dominant in the 1963 NBA.

[70sFan]

Bump

[CavaliersFTW]

His weight is a common misconception. Research reveals that as a Warrior he was at his absolute heaviest. Not as a Sixer nor as a Laker. His heaviest check in was 5th season, 1964-1965 with the Warriors where he came into training camp at 320lbs. He later played "down" to 292lbs. His 6th season he played the season at 301lbs. His 7th season he is a 76er and it is cited that then he was "Down" to 275lbs coming into the year the "lowest he had been in 6 years". Think about that for a second. Throughout the majority of his prime career be it Warriors or Sixers he was 290-300, it doesnt matter what the team it was and he peaked at 320 for the Warriors. As a Laker he played 300-310lbs. The reason he looks "skinny" in some of his black and white footage is probably because it's all rookie footage when he was 260. If his 7th season he dips to 275 and that's the lightest he'd been for 6 years than by his 2nd season he was 275+. Black and white 35mm photography does not fill out subjects like zoom lenses do today, they won't be able to help you gauge how filled out he is. As his career progressed he appears bigger in large part because camera technology shifted to zoom lenses which DO fill out subjects.

Another oft-cited misconception is that he retired shots at various stages of his career. This is not true he ALWAYS had a finger roll, a fall away, and then his dipper dunks and reverse layups around the hoop at least specifically while he was in the the NBA. I've heard people try to say his fall away in particular was retired at various points citing his Sixers years or Lakers years, it wasn't. He attempts it in all his Lakers film games and plenty of Lakers documentary film save for the Jabbar match up game where he hardly attempts any shots to begin with. I think it's possible he took it less often later in his career - but he attempt less of ALL his shots later in his career not just the fall away, the fall away was still definitely with him to the end of the very last game of his career and I have film of him taking that shot from every single season of his NBA career.

A lot of the "changes" in his career are not going to be viewable in highlights at all unless we were able to look at single game highlights which we can't really do due to the era. The changes he made are merely the frequency with which he chooses to shoot, or not shoot, pass or not pass, or demand a touch or not demand a touch. As opposed to the actual skillsets he uses on the floor. The only obvious visible difference I saw in his skillset was that his finger roll as it became known in the NBA did not seem to be in his arsenal as a college player yet. He'd release the ball on some layups as a finger roll but he didn't post up and deliver it in the same repeatable fashion he eventually did in the NBA. It could be argued that maybe his behind the back passing that was popular on the Lakers was also not developed until his Lakers years as I only have Lakers film of that pass however, there's simply not enough NBA film available to decisively conclude this. He could have done it plenty of times throughout his whole career we just don't have enough. I think there was enough college film to conclude his finger roll wasn't quite there yet though, as that was a shot he took often during his NBA years.

[D.Brasco]

His weight is a common misconception. Research reveals that as a Warrior he was at his absolute heaviest. Not as a Sixer nor as a Laker. His heaviest check in was 5th season, 1964-1965 with the Warriors where he came into training camp at 320lbs. He later played "down" to 292lbs. His 6th season he played the season at 301lbs. His 7th season he is a 76er and it is cited that then he was "Down" to 275lbs coming into the year the "lowest he had been in 6 years". Think about that for a second. Throughout the majority of his prime career be it Warriors or Sixers he was 290-300, it doesnt matter what the team it was and he peaked at 320 for the Warriors. As a Laker he played 300-310lbs. The reason he looks "skinny" in some of his black and white footage is probably because it's all rookie footage when he was 260. If his 7th season he dips to 275 and that's the lightest he'd been for 6 years than by his 2nd season he was 275+. Black and white 35mm photography does not fill out subjects like zoom lenses do today, they won't be able to help you gauge how filled out he is. As his career progressed he appears bigger in large part because camera technology shifted to zoom lenses which DO fill out subjects.

Wilt obviously looks bigger in his Laker years but I don't know if I attribute that to black and white vs color?

Here's a black and white pic of Wilt looking pretty big especially in the lower body




Here's him in Philadelphia looking a good deal smaller




I can believe Wilt being over 300 lbs in his Laker years but I haven't seen any photographic evidence that leads me to belive he was ever at that weight prior? maybe at the tail-end of 76ers years.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt obviously looks bigger in his Laker years but I don't know if I attribute that to black and white vs color?

Here's a black and white pic of Wilt looking pretty big especially in the lower body




Here's him in Philadelphia looking a good deal smaller




I can believe Wilt being over 300 lbs in his Laker years but I haven't seen any photographic evidence that leads me to belive he was ever at that weight prior? maybe at the tail-end of 76ers years.

Color or black and white is not the variable.

Zoom lenses are.

You're comparing a picture specifically from Wilts rookie debut against Bill Russell (he's 260 there, as I said most of those "skinny Wilt" pics are from his rookie season) to a pic of Wilt in a Laker uniform (he's 300-310 there). Let me find some pics of Wilt from 1964-65 when specifically he's the same weight and/or greater than as his Lakers years and then lets take a closer look to understand what I'm talking about:

Here's a pic of Wilt his 1964-65 season. And another from his Lakers years. He's at his absolute heaviest of his career in both of these. Can you tell? No?



Here's why:

Zoom lenses are the type of lenses that optically "add lbs" and fill out the figures of subjects. This was not yet a technology that was a legitimate option in the world of sports in the 1960's but eventually into the 1980's and onward this became a DELIBERATE and well known thing in the video entertainment industry, it's used strategically in sports broadcasts and press photos to make athletes appear more filled out, and avoided deliberately filming female celebrities and talk shows to make them and their guests appear less filled out aka less fat. Let me demonstrate:


Notice how the profile of the subjects face begins to appear wider and wider the larger the zoom/focal length?

Here's Dwight at 270 , NO sports zoom lens (1960's ish focal length)

Here's Dwight at 270, same season. But with a 400+mm zoom lens. He's the same size. But look at what the optics do for his figure:


Note the blurry background. Blurry background, and bloated subject. That's the trademark of a zoom lens. Just how blurry, and just how bloated, depends on the zoom.

Let's look at another picture of Wilt at his two heaviest points (1965 season, and Lakers). This time I'll try to find more of a zoom shot (which remember, is not only increasingly rare in 1960's, but is also nowhere NEAR the zoom capabilities of modern cameras).


Ahh starting to look a bit bigger. This is only about 100mm zoom tops still. But look at what it does to the outline of his frame with just that little difference. Suddenly he's got football pads for shoulders. Imagine what he'd look like under a modern 400mm shot, his upper body would have nothing short of dwarfed rookie Shaqs at that point in his career.

Speaking of, here's rookie Shaq, with no zoom lens to help fill him out. He's still very much 300lbs in that pic. But is it as obvious as the pic below?


Are you sort of getting the idea? Most people honestly have no idea about how photography affects subjects and this is how a lot of these weight rumors and things develop during off seasons in this era. As cell phone shots don't fill out subjects. They usually result in "OMG X player lost weight". Then a zoom shot of a celebrity comes out at a beach from a peeper half a mile away with a telephoto zoom lens and it's "OMG Jennifer Anniston gained so much weight!". It's a real thing. In the 1960's, hardly any zoom lenses existed. Though the zoom capabilities did increase gradually into the 1970's which explains why not only Wilt, but other players as well look more and more filled out despite many of them having a somewhat consistent weight throughout their careers.

I'll finally cap off this discussion with the pic of Wilt that I believe is nearest to the training camp when he checked in at 320lbs. This is Wilt heaviest he ever played at, and as mentioned it's from his Warrior years:



He dropped about 20-25 of those lbs as the playing season progressed.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Well outside of Wilt potentially being outliershly heavy at the start of the 65 season he was generally no heavier then 275-285 during his pre-LAL Prime.
In almost every picture or video I have seen of 60's Wilt he looks considerably smaller then he did in his Laker years.

He just generally didn't play at or near 300+ until his Laker years and its pretty much commonly accepted knowledge that he put on a ton of weight in those elder years.
I certainly don't believe that he was in the 290-300 range for most of the 60's and most pictures or video of Wilt during that era would strongly dispute such a claim.
Some random quote from Wilt who doesn't include specifics doesn't really convince me of anything especially since he could have been around 277-285 for those previous few years and what he said would still have been true.

Also the comparison pics of LAL Wilt and 65 Wilt aren't really very good since he is so much further away in the 65 pic.
Even then LAL Wilt (to me) looks wider/bigger in the upper body and also slightly bigger in the lower body.
Still its impossible to tell because of the great disparity between the two shots.

Anyway 260-285 was still VERY heavy for his era so it isn't like he needed the extra weight.
Bill Russell was only 220-240 I believe.

Also that pic of Wilt on the coaster is pretty cool.
Old timey scene with a happy Chamberlain.

[CavaliersFTW]

Well outside of Wilt potentially being outliershly heavy at the start of the 65 season he was generally no heavier then 275-285 during his pre-LAL Prime.
In almost every picture or video I have seen of 60's Wilt he looks considerably smaller then he did in his Laker years.

He just generally didn't play at or near 300+ until his Laker years and its pretty much commonly accepted knowledge that he put on a ton of weight in those elder years.
He certainly wasn't in the 290-300 range for most of the 60's and most pictures or video will strongly dispute such an outlandish claim.

Still 260-285 was VERY heavy for his era so it isn't like he needed the extra weight.
Bill Russell was only 220-240 I believe.

Pictures don't dispute anything for the reasons I just posted above. He weighed 290-300 the majority of his NBA career, and I mean starting early, after like his 2nd NBA season. Wilt was 300-310 as a Laker. The low numbers that are often thrown around are either just people repeating his underbilled listed weight, or are the odd numbers out when actually specified as a weigh in. When weigh in's are mentioned it's the big numbers that are normal, not small ones. Read these:

December 10th 1965 (his 7th NBA season)
(Link to full size)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cJ5GdWIxgMs/VR4mB0K24aI/AAAAAAAAF9I/HR3Dj9Rbvlk/s0-Ic42/Wilt%252520weighed%252520301%252520pounds%252520for%252520the%2525201965%252520nba%252520season.jpg

"He's in better shape, weighs less than he's weighed in 5 years, (275 to last seasons 301, for instance)."

And the season prior to the 301 season he was 320, playing down to 292.


So two seasons in a row at 290-320. Those aren't outlier numbers either, as the entire 5 years prior to 1965-66 season he was above 275. And immediately after that 1965 season he was working out with Hank Stram coach of the Kansas City Chiefs and Wilt is again cited back up to 290lbs.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tDn7lBlbaC8/T1BIb5WnVRI/AAAAAAAADIM/L7D28hRYEzY/s1280-Ic42/Wilt%252520Chamberlain%252520football.jpg

[RayBan-Sematra]

Well.
First let me say I appreciate the effort and the articles.
I also really liked the roller coaster pic from your previous post.

I will say though that.
#1. Just because something was reported in a paper doesn't mean its 100% true or 100% accurate.
I have no idea where that paper got its numbers from. I am sure they didn't weigh Wilt themselves and any word from Wilt I take with a big grain of salt. He always liked to pump himself up and I could easily imagine him giving them inflated numbers.

#2. All that info tells us is that Wilt might have weighed 301 in 65 and 291 in 64. That is only two years.
I have seen video I believe of Wilt in the 64 playoffs and I certainly didn't think he looked 290+.
Perhaps by that point of the season he had lost a few extra pounds.

#3.
Just because he weighed 290-300 those two seasons is no reason to believe he was 290+ in earlier seasons or in 67 or 68 etc...
He could have just as easily been in the 276-285 range assuming his "previous 5 years remark" was true.

Early 60's Wilt was skinny as a twig.
He definitely wasn't pushing 290 by his 2nd season or his 3rd.
Really its only by 1964 (per my memory) that I remember Wilt starting to bulk up and look considerably bigger/thicker.

[CavaliersFTW]

Anyway 260-285 was still VERY heavy for his era so it isn't like he needed the extra weight.
Bill Russell was only 220-240 I believe.

Also that pic of Wilt on the coaster is pretty cool.
Old timey scene with a happy Chamberlain.

It's relevant because Bill Russell was a lot lighter than many of the centers of that era. Some of the heavier guys of Wilt's other center competition was Wayne Embry who topped out about 285, Bellamy topped out at 270, Luke Jackson was about 260, Boerwinkle 275, Bob Lanier 288, Wes Unseld was about 260. There were some very solid and heavy players Wilt played against and I only need to mention a few. In a small league means he's facing these guys frequently.

None of these guys listed weights, nor black and white era pictures which I pointed out mostly lack those zoom lenses will give a clue how heavy they actually were when they hit the floor. Best thing we've got is the testimonial, and newspaper archives for getting weight numbers. Which is where I get those. You can say you believe Wilt was 275-280 or w/e. But those numbers come from your head in year 2015, where as the numbers I cite are actually archived articles or footage that were being written or stated by people who were interacting with Wilt and Wilt's coaches back in the 1960's and 1970's.

[D.Brasco]

I think what you're saying about the camera stuff is reasonable but the thing I'm still confused about is Wilt's massive weight gain from being a 257 lbs rookie I believe, to 320 lbs by your statement 5 seasons later? To my knowledge Wilt only started weight training more intensely into his Laker years and actually more so after he retired even.

That is a huge amount of weight to put on and I'm assuming most of it wasn't fat since Wilt never looked fat especially in the early part of his career. Did he take up some intense weight training regiment? Even for a modern player that is a ton of weight to bulk up to.

I'm a Wilt fan btw I just think certain claims about Wilt that can't be fully substantiated can be used by detractor to push the whole "Wilt as a myth player" criticism.

[CavaliersFTW]

Well.
First let me say I appreciate the effort and the articles.
I also really liked the roller coaster pic from your previous post.

I will say though that.
#1. Just because something was reported in a paper doesn't mean its 100% true or 100% accurate.
I have no idea where that paper got its numbers from. I am sure they didn't weigh Wilt themselves and any word from Wilt I take with a big grain of salt. He always liked to pump himself up and I could easily imagine him giving them inflated numbers.

#2. All that info tells us is that Wilt might have weighed 301 in 65 and 291 in 64. That is only two years.
I have seen video I believe of Wilt in the 64 playoffs and I certainly didn't think he looked 290+.
Perhaps by that point of the season he had lost a few extra pounds.

#3.
Just because he weighed 290-300 those two seasons is no reason to believe he was 290+ in earlier seasons or in 67 or 68 etc...
He could have just as easily been in the 276-285 range assuming his "previous 5 years remark" was true.

Early 60's Wilt was skinny as a twig.
He definitely wasn't pushing 290 by his 2nd season or his 3rd.
Really its only by 1964 (per my memory) that I remember Wilt starting to bulk up and look considerably bigger/thicker.

The season in which you claim he looks below 290+:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lKuNzbu05c4/VbCLcdSEfGI/AAAAAAAAGuA/tyKn-ebzdS8/s0-Ic42/Details%252520of%252520Wilts%252520track%252520and%252520field%252520exploits%2525201964.jpg

"The program said he weighed something like 275 or 280 but he admitted when we talked that he was over 300...

...Wilt looks rangy from a distance but he has tremendous arms and shoulders."

[RayBan-Sematra]

It's relevant because Bill Russell was a lot lighter than many of the centers of that era. Some of the heavier guys of Wilt's other center competition was Wayne Embry who topped out about 285, Bellamy topped out at 270, Luke Jackson was about 260, Boerwinkle 275, Bob Lanier 288, Wes Unseld was about 260. There were some very solid and heavy players Wilt played against and I only need to mention a few. In a small league means he's facing these guys frequently.

None of these guys listed weights, nor black and white era pictures which I pointed out mostly lack those zoom lenses will give a clue how heavy they actually were when they hit the floor. Best thing we've got is the testimonial, and newspaper archives for getting weight numbers. Which is where I get those. You can say you believe Wilt was 275-280 or w/e. But those numbers come from your head in year 2015, where as the numbers I cite are actually archived articles or footage that were being written or stated by people who were interacting with Wilt and Wilt's coaches back in the 1960's and 1970's.

Fair enough.
Anyway based on what you've told me and what I have seen with my own eyes this is how I see it.

1960-63 = Skinny Chamberlain | 260-275 pounds
1964 = Chamberlain bulks up potentially to 290+
1965 = Paper says Chamberlain bulks up to 301+ (I don't remember this year too well)
1966 = 275
1967-1969 = 275-290
1970+ = 300-310

Something like this.
Anyway I need to do more of my own research before I can give more exact numbers for each year.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think what you're saying about the camera stuff is reasonable but the thing I'm still confused about is Wilt's massive weight gain from being a 257 lbs rookie I believe, to 320 lbs by your statement 5 seasons later? To my knowledge Wilt only started weight training more intensely into his Laker years and actually more so after he retired even.

That is a huge amount of weight to put on and I'm assuming most of it wasn't fat since Wilt never looked fat especially in the early part of his career. Did he take up some intense weight training regiment? Even for a modern player that is a ton of weight to bulk up to.

I'm a Wilt fan btw I just think certain claims about Wilt that can't be fully substantiated can be used by detractor to push the whole "Wilt as a myth player" criticism.

He weight trained heavily since being a teenager, his sister Barbara told a story about how Wilt got sand kicked in his face as a teenager or something and said he wanted to be big and strong. He used to carry a weight bag around as a Harlem Globetrotter on their roadtrips. He lifted weights and trained with the throwers and football players at KU, guys like Maurice King are interviewed as saying all that "weight ruins your touch" talk disappeared as soon as Wilt hit the campus because nobody wanted to tell Wilt he couldn't keep lifting weights.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Oh dear.
I think Cavs broke the website.

[CavaliersFTW]

Oh dear.
I think Cavs broke the website.

Woops, I think it's Dr. Brasco's reply to my post, if he can edit it to exclude all the pics it might fix it I think it's just a bit too long

[D.Brasco]

Lol yeah I edited my post now...that was weird.

[CavaliersFTW]

Lol yeah I edited my post now...that was weird.

Nice. Clutch save of the thread, I thought that post looked a bit odd prob my fault for making that post so long lol