Which bigs all-time are you comfortable with as your offensive anchor for a championship team in the current league?

[ceiling raiser]

Most would probably be fine with Barkley, Shaq, Dirk, Kareem. Who else would qualify, under the strictest of criteria?

For the purpose of this exercise, this needs to be a team that contends on the basis of its elite offense, with each big you nominate as its centerpiece.

[Sublime187]

If I understand the criteria correctly, Wilt and DRob qualify as an offensive anchor for certain.

[Winsome Gerbil]

The 6 already mentioned, and Hakeem of course does not have the all modern day worshipped TS%, but the thing is that we actually saw Hakeem lead a modern style one big man inside + 4 three point shooting perimeter players team to back to back titles.

BTW, I understand this is an attempt to generate something other than the standard list, but a bit of a nit with the qualification because exactly why I might choose many of the bigs as my offensive anchor is to slow the game down and pound the smallball teams to death. Asking which bigs you'd be comfortable with leading a modern elite offense is kind of like asking which PGs you'd be comfortable with leading a grind it out smashmouth team.

[ceiling raiser]

The 6 already mentioned, and Hakeem of course does not have the all modern day worshipped TS%, but the thing is that we actually saw Hakeem lead a modern style one big man inside + 4 three point shooting perimeter players team to back to back titles.

BTW, I understand this is an attempt to generate something other than the standard list, but a bit of a nit with the qualification because exactly why I might choose many of the bigs as my offensive anchor is to slow the game down and pound the smallball teams to death. Asking which bigs you'd be comfortable with leading a modern elite offense is kind of like asking which PGs you'd be comfortable with leading a grind it out smashmouth team.

Just one note, doesn't have to be an elite "modern" (I'm reading this as stylistically modern) offense per se, just an elite offense (which for me is probably a high on-court ORtg, and sustainable in the playoffs against top defenses) as long as it's possible in today's game (given rules, current strategy, etc.).

[colts18]

Only Shaq and Kareem

[70sFan]

Timmy? Also probably Bill Walton but I'm not sure.
There is one guy that probably not many people from here would choose - Moses Malone. It seems that during his prime he had amazing impact on offense. But I know, he's not versalite so probably nobody (besides me) would choose him

[GYK]

an elite offense takes multiple pieces and a system. the system s especially important with the rule changes.
however what we see in Davis as a highly assisted high/low post scorer with a jumper and transition finisher combined with Pop famed system still featuring Duncan in the post its certainly possible. there was a time when Brook was winning games. Cousins doesn't win but we know he's elite. the Grizzles aren't an elite offense and neither are centerpiece scorers(as a tandem, yes) but they are a post team.
pretty high pace and/or uber efficiency is needed for a team to have a great offense. for a big man to be the centerpiece in this day and age the four out one in seems to be the best choice. multiple play makers are kinda necessary if we are trying to get most of their points assisted on with their quick decisions. post ups are now isolation/go to buckets.
with that I think all scoring bigs work fine. ability to establish position quick is needed. ball movement from the team. plays probably cant start with them posting up but setting screens/picks and as the ball goes away from them they are establish position for when it returns. taking over a game would be less go to baskets and dependent on how fluid the offense is running.

[tsherkin]

Most would probably be fine with Barkley, Shaq, Dirk, Kareem. Who else would qualify, under the strictest of criteria?

Barkley might actually be a problem, because of the 5-second rule. He might not be quite as deadly as he was in Philly these days. He'd still be sick, though, so he certainly still counts. Food for thought.

I'd add Hakeem to that list. He was typically a 110+ ORTG player and he was usually gaining +2% over league average even before his peak in his 30s. His offense was good enough, then got BETTER in the playoffs (where he was a nearly 58% TS player, mind), and of course he was a demon on defense. Olajuwon's big deal was more playoff offense than being as good as someone like Shaq on offense in the RS, coupled with his ATG defense. It's very much droll to be impressed with his STYLE of play, but it's clear that KAJ and Shaq were superior offensive players, even factoring in playoff dominance and narrative value from the 94 and 95 playoffs (94 Finals, 95 WCFs and Finals, mainly).

Given that one-man teams aren't stunningly likely to win titles unless you get some really great team support (like the 94 Rockets or 2011 Mavs), I'd actually be just fine with Malone or D-Rob as well, because if you put actual scoring guards of consequence next to either, they title. Keep in mind that epic while was Stockton at passing the ball in the PnR (and even in transition), he was not a particularly good take-over scorer or dynamic threat with dribble penetration. By the time the Jazz were ready to REALLY contend, they had two non-elite athletes at guard, in their thirties... and Horny had a bum knee the whole time, while Stockton did in 98. Not exactly awesome for secondary scoring. Robinson had what? VDN and Avery Johnson, and Mario Ellie? Oooooooh. #NoNotReally

The Jazz/Spurs weren't epic-crap teams, but they didn't have offensive punch after their first stars and it shot them in the foot more than once. Especially today, when we're going bonkers finding competent 18-20 ppg PGs, those two would flourish.

I wouldn't be opposed to building with Moses. He wouldn't be my first choice, but you could clearly build a really good team with him. You might have to press your wings for really strong transition defense given the way Moses ate everyone's lunch going to the offensive boards, but they're the first line of transition D anyway, so that's not the worst thing in the world. You don't actually see a ton of centers in league history who were killer on chase-down blocks when the break went the other way. Basically you're talking about Dream, Admiral and Anthony Davis. There are other examples, naturally, but they were even less frequent than those two (and neither did that EVERY game anyhow).

Wouldn't build with McHale or Parish; would love to have either on my team, but neither were keystone pieces. I WOULD build with Zo if he were in the league, but he wouldn't be my first choice with the pick of whomever I wanted from league history, obviously.

I would choose not to found my offense on Ewing if I could avoid it. He'd be a fine #2 on offense to a really good scoring guard, and he's killer for building your D, but his passing and wussiness come the playoffs was typical of what happens when you took Not-Shaq/Kareem/Olajuwon into the playoffs against good defenses. Centers aren't the right choice for volume offense but for a very few examples in league history.

I'd love to see what a mythical "healthy Bill Walton" could accomplish in today's league. Not my first choice, because of the mythical nature of such a beast, but he was pretty gross in 77 and 78. Actually much better in 78, and a shade overrated as a passer, but I'd be curious about the way a team could leverage an 18-20 ppg scorer who liked to pass from the high post and enable guard play with UCLA screens.

Prime Duncan comes to mind. He didn't really blow your socks off offensively, but he didn't overstep his abilities, was still pretty good (really good, at peak) and obviously killer on the glass and on D. Under the criteria of the OP, though, I guess he wouldn't count because he wasn't usually the head of dominant offenses.

I don't think as much of Garnett as some, but even I remember what he accomplished with Sam Cassell and that mutton-headed idiot, Latrell Sprewell, back in the 2004 season. It was impressive, although like Duncan, he doesn't conjure the notion of ATG offense in my mind so much as defensive value. Not first on my list, but he's on it.


EDIT: Adding in guys who are still playing and quite young, Griffin and the Brow certainly come to mind. Reaching back a decade, if you had Sloan and a good PG, I wouldn't be opposed to Boozer. Same deal with Amare if you had an offensively-minded coach who didn't mind his flagrant disregard for not-sucking-ass at defense. Karl, MAD, Gentry, etc. Woodson actually worked well enough with him, and I think a healthy, younger Amare would have even gotten along well enough with Carlisle. I'm pretty sure that even with his boobery on the defensive end, if you put the right team around him, he could work you towards some really gross offense.

[ceiling raiser]

Only Shaq and Kareem

Interesting. I don't necessarily disagree, but why not Dirk/Barkley?

Most would probably be fine with Barkley, Shaq, Dirk, Kareem. Who else would qualify, under the strictest of criteria?

Barkley might actually be a problem, because of the 5-second rule. He might not be quite as deadly as he was in Philly these days. He'd still be sick, though, so he certainly still counts. Food for thought.

I'd add Hakeem to that list. He was typically a 110+ ORTG player and he was usually gaining +2% over league average even before his peak in his 30s. His offense was good enough, then got BETTER in the playoffs (where he was a nearly 58% TS player, mind), and of course he was a demon on defense. Olajuwon's big deal was more playoff offense than being as good as someone like Shaq on offense in the RS, coupled with his ATG defense. It's very much droll to be impressed with his STYLE of play, but it's clear that KAJ and Shaq were superior offensive players, even factoring in playoff dominance and narrative value from the 94 and 95 playoffs (94 Finals, 95 WCFs and Finals, mainly).

...

I wouldn't be opposed to building with Moses. He wouldn't be my first choice, but you could clearly build a really good team with him. You might have to press your wings for really strong transition defense given the way Moses ate everyone's lunch going to the offensive boards, but they're the first line of transition D anyway, so that's not the worst thing in the world. You don't actually see a ton of centers in league history who were killer on chase-down blocks when the break went the other way. Basically you're talking about Dream, Admiral and Anthony Davis. There are other examples, naturally, but they were even less frequent than those two (and neither did that EVERY game anyhow).

Thanks for the thorough response. Good point about Barkley, and perhaps defense might be an issue (though he isn't the 'five' that Moses is, so maybe it's not as much of a problem).

With regards to Hakeem, does it worry you that none of his team offenses were elite (relative ORtgs of 0.0, +2.9, -1.8, -0.9, -2.1, -3.3, -0.5, -2.0, +1.6, -0.4, +1.4, +1.7, +2.1, +2.7, +3.2) aside from the one early year with Sampson, and the later years with Barkley, moved the needle offensively (in the playoffs, just from skimming, 86, 95, 97, 99 are the only that seem to impress, though on the flip side, having an elite co- or secondary-star helps, so maybe this shouldn't be held against him EDIT: and in 99 for both season and playoffs, we can't say Olajuwon was featured)?

[Quotatious]

Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley, Hakeem, Duncan (at least peak Duncan), plus MAYBE peak Kevin McHale. That's it.

[70sFan]

Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley, Hakeem, Duncan (at least peak Duncan), plus MAYBE peak Kevin McHale. That's it.

I know that Wilt played in some bad offensive teams, but didn't he show that he can anchor good offense in 1967 and 1968 year? Unless you think he wasn't offensive anchor during that time

[ceiling raiser]

Kareem, Shaq, Dirk, Barkley, Hakeem, Duncan (at least peak Duncan), plus MAYBE peak Kevin McHale. That's it.

I know that Wilt played in some bad offensive teams, but didn't he show that he can anchor good offense in 1967 and 1968 year? Unless you think he wasn't offensive anchor during that time

Regarding 67 and 68, I wonder if they warrant a Walton comparison, for those who saw or know a lot about both?

(To clarify for me personally, I left Wilt out of the OP because of the lack of tape either way for me to evaluate; not going to take a stance either way, but it wasn't an issue of seeing what he's capable of and excluding him. Just lack of knowledge on my part, since the available games and data aren't enough for me.)

[Quotatious]

I know that Wilt played in some bad offensive teams, but didn't he show that he can anchor good offense in 1967 and 1968 year? Unless you think he wasn't offensive anchor during that time

You're probably right. If Dwight Howard could lead a team to the finals as the best scorer on that team, then Wilt also should be able to do it...He would still be arguably the best athlete in the league even today, he was smart and pretty skilled for a center, so I'd probably take Wilt, too (especially the playmaking version, 1967 and '68, as you said).

Initially, I had Chamberlain in the next group, along with Karl Malone, KG, Moses and D-Rob - these guys who all had certain weaknesses in their offensive game which made them less-than-ideal #1 offensive options, but you can still build a championship team around all of them, if you just find the right pieces to surround them with. Walton would be in that category, too (perhaps slightly lower, alongside guys like Ewing and Howard - I mean, Ewing/Howard weren't even in the same galaxy as Walton in terms of passing ability, but they were clearly better scorers).

[tsherkin]

With regards to Hakeem, does it worry you that none of his team offenses were elite (relative ORtgs of 0.0, +2.9, -1.8, -0.9, -2.1, -3.3, -0.5, -2.0, +1.6, -0.4, +1.4, +1.7, +2.1, +2.7, +3.2)

Nope. You can do only so much with what you've got, and Houston management sucked a great deal. Rudy T wasn't an offensive genius of a coach, either, and by the time he had consequential talent next to him... both it and he were 30+ and didn't have a ton of time together to gel, or a brilliant coach. Tomjanovich was a great motivator. That's what I can say for him. Neither he nor his assistants were especially tactically clever. Now, that mattered, because he had a positive impact on Houston without a doubt, but coaching does matter to upper bound of offense, as does peripheral talent. And like I said, Hakeem's value was a lot like Duncan/Garnett in that he was more valuable for his two-way RS play and his PS offensive elevation. He's good enough on O to make them solid in the RS, and then he booms on your face in the playoffs, with consistently-great D the whole way through.

Not sure if that meets the specific criteria of the OP, of course, but I'd build with that over Barkley any day.

[Quotatious]

(To clarify for me personally, I left Wilt out of the OP because of the lack of tape either way for me to evaluate; not going to take a stance either way, but it wasn't an issue of seeing what he's capable of and excluding him. Just lack of knowledge on my part, since the available games and data aren't enough for me.)

Regarding Walton, I just posted all six games of the 1977 finals in the Game Footage thread (I'm sure you already watched those, but maybe not everyone here has).

Fpliii, as far Hakeem's teams' unimpressive offensive ratings - I think his playoff runs in 1993-95, in particular 1995, (and even 1986, to a certain degree) were easily good enough to consider him a championship caliber go-to option. Besides, tsherkin makes valid points about Hakeem not having an elite offensive coach (or teammates, for a large part of his career). What really matters here is the ability to perform well in the playoffs, and Hakeem was one of the best in terms of elevating his game in the most important moments.

[70sFan]

I know that Wilt played in some bad offensive teams, but didn't he show that he can anchor good offense in 1967 and 1968 year? Unless you think he wasn't offensive anchor during that time

You're probably right. If Dwight Howard could lead a team to the finals as the best scorer on that team, then Wilt also should be able to do it...He would still be arguably the best athlete in the league even today, he was smart and pretty skilled for a center, so I'd probably take Wilt, too (especially the playmaking version, 1967 and '68, as you said).

Initially, I had Chamberlain in the next group, along with Karl Malone, KG, Moses and D-Rob - these guys who all had certain weaknesses in their offensive game which made them less-than-ideal #1 offensive options, but you can still build a championship team around all of them, if you just find the right pieces to surround them with. Walton would be in that category, too (perhaps slightly lower, alongside guys like Ewing and Howard - I mean, Ewing/Howard weren't even in the same galaxy as Walton in terms of passing ability, but they were clearly better scorers).

What kind of weaknesses do you mean? Besides free throw of course (but Shaq had same problem, so it' s not what you mean I think)

[ceiling raiser]

Thanks for elaborating on your stance tsherkin.

(To clarify for me personally, I left Wilt out of the OP because of the lack of tape either way for me to evaluate; not going to take a stance either way, but it wasn't an issue of seeing what he's capable of and excluding him. Just lack of knowledge on my part, since the available games and data aren't enough for me.)

Regarding Walton, I just posted all six games of the 1977 finals in the Game Footage thread (I'm sure you already watched those, but maybe not everyone here has).

Yea I have them, thanks. Watched them last year or so. I remember him looking quite good, but I didn't take any elaborate notes or do stat-tracking.

[chrismikayla]

Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Robinson

[Quotatious]

What kind of weaknesses do you mean? Besides free throw of course (but Shaq had same problem, so it' s not what you mean I think)

Free throw shooting isn't a huge deal (Shaq was an equally bad FT shooter and it didn't prevent him from winning multiple championships as the first option on offense), but I'm not particularly ecstatic about Wilt's post up ability against really strong defenses, compared to guys like Kareem, Shaq or even Hakeem. I would probably take 2003 Duncan as an offensive anchor in the playoffs over Wilt, as well.
Chamberlain has something in common with Karl Malone or D-Rob, in the sense that their offensive game wasn't as well-suited for playoff basketball as Shaq's or Kareem's was (especially Shaq's). Chamberlain was the best in the league in this regard for his era, but there were a few guys who were better than him in league's history (even Dirk or Barkley were more reliable).

I guess it depends on which version of Wilt we are talking about, though. Early Wilt had certain ball-stopping tendencies (it was in part because of poor coaching, but also his own willingness to have a ton of ISO plays ran for him in half-court, where his teammates were just standing around and waiting for him to make a move). Later, Wilt's shooting touch diminished (maybe him abandoning that low percentage fadeaway jumper wasn't a bad thing, but it made him more predictable and he'd be easier to double in today's game).

At any rate, Wilt definitely wouldn't make my top 5 as far as interior offensive anchors. Top 10, probably, but not top 5.

[mischievous]

Wilt Shaq Kareem Dirk Hakeem Moses Duncan Barkley. The disrespect Wilt gets is alarming.