trex_8063 wrote:Barkley vs. Malone
As it was often a debate during their overlapping careers, it's still an interesting (i.e. close) debate today, imo.
At the time I recall feeling Barkley peaked higher, and that Malone surpassed Barkley overall only late in his career by doing his best Energizer Bunny impression (just kept going and going and going). Still, I think it warrants taking a closer look.
Before I proceed, I guess I should specify where I think their respective peaks are…..
I tend to think of Barkley's peak as '90, as opposed to '93 (or ‘91, which I think is very close, too). '90 was more the culmination of skills and physical peak to me. No doubt his playmaking was a bit improved in '93; and Spaceman mentioned his improved proficiency from the mid-range (and greater willingness to use it) by '93, and stated this as a good thing. But tbh, I'm not sure it is a good thing for Barkley.
Because the thing is: he never really reached a point where he was a legitimately "good" mid-range shooter; fair or "not bad", but not actually good (at least not at all compared to the upshot that was present when he attacked the rim). And him taking nearly 3 attempts/game from trey at 30.5% isn't what I would call a good thing either.
Few things I note in relation to this greater willingness to shoot from mid-range or long range in ‘93: he had the lowest FG% since his rookie season, the lowest eFG% of his career to that point, the lowest FTr of his entire career (both before and after ‘93; by far lower than any year prior to ‘93), and the lowest TS% of his career to that point. Basically, many of the things that led to him being at or near the top of the league in 2Pt%, eFG%, and TS% (year-after-year) vanished in '93 as result of this greater tendency to shoot far from the basket.
Perhaps it could be argued the silver lining was that this opened the floor up a little to help the team offense or some such. Pro-'93 crowd would likely wish to point out that they were the #1 offense that year (+5.3 rORTG); however, this team was +3.9 rORTG (5th in league) the year before Barkley arrived (though he wasn’t the only roster change). But point still stands: this was a talented offensive team even without Barkley.
I'm frankly more impressed with the +5.4 rORTG (2nd in league) he anchored in '90 with a supporting cast of Hersey Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins, Mike Gminski, Rick Mahorn, Ron Anderson, and Derek Smith, than I am with a +5.3 rORTG with a supporting cast of Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, Cedric Ceballos, Danny Ainge, Mark West, Richard Dumas, and Oliver Miller. And his individual numbers probably marginally more impressive in '90, too.
Take for instance him shooting >63% from 2pt range in THREE separate seasons ('90 was one of them); on his kind of volume, that’s insane. Seriously, who, outside of low-volume guys like Tyson Chandler or Chris Andersen ever shoots >63% from inside the arc? Even ‘67 Wilt doesn’t quite match…...you don’t even have to adjust for pace, merely adjust for minutes: if you do a search for all seasons in NBA history of >13 FGA/36 minutes, >63% 2Pt%, and >27 mpg you come up with precisely two seasons…..and BOTH of them are Barkley (‘89 and ‘90).
Honestly, in that circa-’90 era of his career he has a case as the surest two points or two FT attempts in NBA history.
So I tend to think of that time period as his offensive peak (and offense is really what you're talking about with Charles Barkley).
For Malone, I tend to look at either '97 or '98 as his peak. I know a lot of people like '92, because it's statistically his best playoff numbers. But his playoff numbers in '98 are barely behind, and that as part of a trip to the finals (he went for 25.0 ppg on 55.3% in the finals, too, though I know he flubbed a couple crucial moments in the series); and the rs was even better in '98 than ‘92 ('97 was probably his BEST all-around rs).
I like the more refined mid-range game and turnaround that he had by this time in his career. I don't find this to be a hindrance on his game like I did with Barkley (in fact, I think it was to his benefit) for three reasons: 1) he was BETTER from the mid-range than Barkley ever was; 2) he was never quite as dominant attacking the rim as Barkley (so there's less "lost upshot" of him not attacking the basket); and 3) with how much they worked the pnr 2-man game in Utah, it’s a good thing to have a mid-range shot to facilitate a pick n’ pop.
And lastly, I think he was a better defender at this point in his career than he was in '92 (perhaps evidenced by All-D 1st team selections in '97-'99).
So let’s look at ‘90 Barkley vs. '97-'98 Karl Malone......
Rebounding
Mostly focusing on defensive rebounding, as I’m to a small degree lumping offensive rebounding into their capabilities as scorers. Malone has a pretty decent edge over ‘90 Barkley on the defensive boards (DRB% of 24.5% between ‘97 and ‘98, vs. 20.0% for ‘90 Barkley).
Barkley was the better offensive rebounder (more on that below); but even with that, Malone still had the marginally higher TRB% (though same in reb/100 possessions).
So I’m giving Malone a small edge as a rebounder, especially given the focus on defensive rebounding in this category.
Passing/Playmaking
Malone by this point in his career is one of the best passing bigs of all-time, and is averaging 6.1 ast/100 possessions between ‘97-’98, vs. 4.3 tov/100. Barkley’s pretty good too, and I will hand it to Barkley that he also had the handles to do a bit more off the dribble, and particularly being the guy to LEAD the fast-break (not just finish it).
Overall, this category feels pretty close to a wash; if I had to pick I’d lean slightly to Malone.
Defense
Well this one is clearly a solid advantage to Malone. He was an excellent low-post defender, a very good pnr defender, quick enough to not be lost if caught on a switch, good on rotations, got a few steals and blocks (clearly without often being out of position for the defensive rebound).
Other than the defensive rebounds and getting some steals, Barkley was good at basically none of these things, at least not on any regular basis. I recall single plays where he was brilliant, but he didn’t show the effort or interest on a consistent basis. And I think his height was a bit of a liability in low-post defense.
Intangibles
Neither guy is amazing where intangibles are concerned, though not awful either. I imagine Barkley was probably better liked by his teammates in many instances, but Malone had the much better work ethic. I kinda like Malone a little better where things like screen-setting is concerned. I’d maybe have to re-watch some games, but off the cuff I think they were fairly similar as outlet passers.
Scoring
I’ll start on Malone. There’s no question he benefited from system and Stockton, but to hear some people talk about it, they’d have you believe that without Stockton he’s basically Zach Randolph as a scorer. Come on…..
He’s 6’9” 260 lbs of solid muscle, he runs the floor well (very well), has great hands, can finish very well (excellent/elite?), can shoot from the mid-range (quite well, really), had a few weapons in the post (turnaround, put his head down and plow into the middle of the lane for that little floating one-hander), could hit his FT’s, and was a pretty good offensive rebounder (8.4% ORB% in years specified)......that’s someone who is scoring a minimum of 23-24 ppg on at least “good” efficiency in basically any circumstance in any era. The only instance in which I could see him scoring less would perhaps be if on a team with TWO other superstars (like say he takes over Bosh’s role on the ‘11-’14 Heat).....he may only go for ~20-21 ppg in that circumstance, though likely on dynamite efficiency.
Here’s what he DID score in ‘97-’98:
39.5 pts/100 possessions @ 59.8% TS in 37.0 mpg in rs
36.2 pts/100 possessions @ 51.7% TS in 40.3 mpg in playoffs
His rs stats oversell his ability as a scorer, playoff numbers probably at least marginally undersell his scoring ability. Obv the playoff drop is a concern, but generally speaking he was probably just not a scorer meant to shoulder ~32% usage in the first place, and I’m sure he doesn’t manage it as well as he did without Stockton. Probably could have managed 24-25% usage pretty well though.
Barkley, as I alluded to above, is a scoring beast. Remarkable finisher, just amazing at attacking the basket. As good as Malone was at drawing fouls, Barkley was even better (and was a respectable FT-shooter at nearly 75% in ‘90).
I remember a thread somewhat recently about who had the best shot/pump-fake of all-time. Dantley of course was who came to mind for me. But Barkley had an amazing pump-fake, too. I can’t believe how often he’d get defenders to bite on it when he’s like 18-19 feet from the hoop (again: not really a good mid-range shooter in ‘90) when he’s so dangerous when attacking the interior.
Barkley was the better and more tenacious offensive rebounder, which is part of what facilitates his absurd shooting efficiency (high% put-backs), as well as “stealing” possessions from the opponent.
Barkley was so ridiculously strong, and with that low center of gravity, was outstanding at just backing defenders down in the post until he was close enough to explode at the rim. And did I mention he was strong? I swear, there were times he exploded up toward the rim, with ~6’10” guys hanging all over him…..and his body would just continue to rise; he would just power thru them.
Amazing in transition, too.
Barkley’s ‘90 scoring stats:
32.1 pts/100 possessions @ 66.1% TS [no, that’s not a typo] in 39.1 mpg in the rs
30.4 pts/100 possessions @ 58.9% TS in 41.9 mpg in the playoffs
I look at the playoff scoring that’s still elite-level (and with no one like Stockton to help him), and that utterly ridiculous rs efficiency---btw, search all the seasons with >23 pts/36 min, >65% TS, >27 mpg…...there are only 7 seasons ever, and 3 of them are Barkley (‘88-’90); make the mark >66% TS and there are only three seasons, two of which are Barkley---and I can’t help feeling that Barkley is the significantly more dominant scorer.
Is his superiority as a pure scorer enough to tip the scales given Malone’s edge as a defender and tiny edge as a rebounder? idk…..anymore, I’m not too sure. At the very least, it seems that wherever Barkley is in this project, Malone’s right behind him.
Where Moses fits in here is very ambiguous to me. Moses is such an outlier, stylistically, makes him a little harder to place. It seems like he's worse than Karl at basically everything except offensive rebounding (where he has a big edge). Vs. Barkley, it seems he's worse at everything except offensive rebounding, FT-shooting, and maybe defense. And yet he exerted similar degrees of dominance as both players.
idk if any of them can definitively be held above some of the PG's you refer to, especially a two-way elite level player like Chris Paul.
