1981 Bird vs 2007 LeBron

[Quotatious]

First run to the finals by both guys. Who was better?

[Mutnt]

LeBron was better at pretty much everything outside of being slightly less active on the boards, even if his scoring took a dip in the postseason.

There's just a colossal difference between having Parish & Maxwell as your 2nd and 3rd best players (both were Top 10 players in '81, even had comparable win shares and higher WS/48) instead of Big Z (whose performance notoriously got worse in the PS) and 1900 minutes of Andy Varejao.

[LA Bird]

Bird but its close. I think he was better defensively and on offense, he was still highly effective out of the post both as a scorer and playmaker even if the shooting efficiency sometimes wasn't there (same reason why LeBron the last 2 seasons is a lot better offensively than his earlier versions despite the awful TS% IMO). In the playoffs, both had a disappointing finals but Bird beating the 7.8 SRS 76ers with MVP Dr J and Bobby Jones at his defensive peak in the conference finals (27/13/5 on 56% TS) was more impressive than what LeBron did against the Pistons.

LeBron was better at pretty much everything outside of being slightly less active on the boards, even if his scoring took a dip in the postseason.

"Slightly" is an understatement. Bird dominated him in rebounding.

TRB% (regular season, playoffs)
James: 9.6 / 10.6
Bird: 15.7 / 17.6

There's just a colossal difference between having Parish & Maxwell as your 2nd and 3rd best players (both were Top 10 players in '81, even had comparable win shares and higher WS/48) instead of Big Z (whose performance notoriously got worse in the PS) and 1900 minutes of Andy Varejao.

The difference is reflected in the team results, unless you are saying the better supporting cast precludes Bird from possibly having a better season. With regards to win shares, I think it overvalues high efficiency from finishing at the rim and undervalues the playmaker who initiates the offensive sequence. Bird was quite clearly the best player on the Celtics.

Also, I would argue that LeBron's supporting cast is underrated. All the talk is on LeBron carrying the Cavs offensively but it was their defense which was their calling card in both the regular season and playoffs (around -5 DRtg relative to average). In JE's multiyear DRAPM, Varejao is 7th and Big Z is top 30. Not a great supporting cast by any means but the defensive role players always get overlooked in a comparison like this.

[Mutnt]

Bird but its close. I think he was better defensively and on offense, he was still highly effective out of the post both as a scorer and playmaker even if the shooting efficiency sometimes wasn't there (same reason why LeBron the last 2 seasons is a lot better offensively than his earlier versions despite the awful TS% IMO). In the playoffs, both had a disappointing finals but Bird beating the 7.8 SRS 76ers with MVP Dr J and Bobby Jones at his defensive peak in the conference finals (27/13/5 on 56% TS) was more impressive than what LeBron did against the Pistons.

That's mostly BS.

"Slightly" is an understatement. Bird dominated him in rebounding.

TRB% (regular season, playoffs)
James: 9.6 / 10.6
Bird: 15.7 / 17.6

Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Rebounding is overrated. The Cavs were already the 2nd best rebounding team in 2007, they had plenty of guys capable of securing boards, why would LeBron (who's actually a lot more optimally used as the receiver of an outlet pass in transition) waste his team crashing the glass against mostly his own team? You really think if the goal of the game was which player can grab 10 rebounds first that Bird would be able to outrebound a 250 pound athletic monster boxing out with one of the greatest verticals in the history of the game? It's clear as day that Bird focused on rebounding the ball for his team more than LeBron did and that was mainly a strategic choice (like I said, LeBron wanted to be the receiver in transition, because his ability to make plays/baskets in transition is GOAT level, and not worth the trouble of rebounding the ball from what would likely be his teammate getting it).

The difference is reflected in the team results, unless you are saying the better supporting cast precludes Bird from possibly having a better season. With regards to win shares, I think it overvalues high efficiency from finishing at the rim and undervalues the playmaker who initiates the offensive sequence. Bird was quite clearly the best player on the Celtics.

No, my point was that LeBron was the better player and would've made the '81 Celtics a better team, while Bird wouldn't win 50 games with that Cleveland cast.

Your comment about win shares doesn't make sense at all. There's plenty of dominant offensive players playing different styles that measure differently in WS. Shaq, Dirk, CP3, LeBron, Curry... doesn't seem like it would favor any particular breed of players clearly over others.

Bird took 4 more FGA's than Parish and only averaged 2 points more. He took 9 more FGA's than Maxwell and only averaged 6 points more. You do the math. Bird was also not even the main playmaker on his team, that was clearly Archibald.

I think Bird was the best player on that Celtic team, but his lack of efficiency was a problem and he didn't nearly have as much playmaking responsibilities/prowess as people revisionisticly remember. And then there's also the question of his defensive impact.

Also, I would argue that LeBron's supporting cast is underrated. All the talk is on LeBron carrying the Cavs offensively but it was their defense which was their calling card in both the regular season and playoffs (around -5 DRtg relative to average). In JE's multiyear DRAPM, Varejao is 7th and Big Z is top 30. Not a great supporting cast by any means but the defensive role players always get overlooked in a comparison like this.

Lmao, Bird instead of LeBron in that team and the offense goes from #18 ranked to #25-30 range. Bird was a clearly inferior scorer and playmaker, more turnover prone, had less versatile offensively and defensively than LeBron. Also didn't have a three point shot at that stage of his career. The defense probably gets worse too, although I think Bird was underrated defensively throughout most of his prime.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Bird but its close. I think he was better defensively and on offense, he was still highly effective out of the post both as a scorer and playmaker even if the shooting efficiency sometimes wasn't there (same reason why LeBron the last 2 seasons is a lot better offensively than his earlier versions despite the awful TS% IMO). In the playoffs, both had a disappointing finals but Bird beating the 7.8 SRS 76ers with MVP Dr J and Bobby Jones at his defensive peak in the conference finals (27/13/5 on 56% TS) was more impressive than what LeBron did against the Pistons.

That's mostly BS.

"Slightly" is an understatement. Bird dominated him in rebounding.

TRB% (regular season, playoffs)
James: 9.6 / 10.6
Bird: 15.7 / 17.6

Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Rebounding is overrated. The Cavs were already the 2nd best rebounding team in 2007, they had plenty of guys capable of securing boards, why would LeBron (who's actually a lot more optimally used as the receiver of an outlet pass in transition) waste his team crashing the glass against mostly his own team? You really think if the goal of the game was which player can grab 10 rebounds first that Bird would be able to outrebound a 250 pound athletic monster boxing out with one of the greatest verticals in the history of the game? It's clear as day that Bird focused on rebounding the ball for his team more than LeBron did and that was mainly a strategic choice (like I said, LeBron wanted to be the receiver in transition, because his ability to make plays/baskets in transition is GOAT level, and not worth the trouble of rebounding the ball from what would likely be his teammate getting it).

The difference is reflected in the team results, unless you are saying the better supporting cast precludes Bird from possibly having a better season. With regards to win shares, I think it overvalues high efficiency from finishing at the rim and undervalues the playmaker who initiates the offensive sequence. Bird was quite clearly the best player on the Celtics.

No, my point was that LeBron was the better player and would've made the '81 Celtics a better team, while Bird wouldn't win 50 games with that Cleveland cast.

Your comment about win shares doesn't make sense at all. There's plenty of dominant offensive players playing different styles that measure differently in WS. Shaq, Dirk, CP3, LeBron, Curry... doesn't seem like it would favor any particular breed of players clearly over others.

Bird took 4 more FGA's than Parish and only averaged 2 points more. He took 9 more FGA's than Maxwell and only averaged 6 points more. You do the math. Bird was also not even the main playmaker on his team, that was clearly Archibald.

I think Bird was the best player on that Celtic team, but his lack of efficiency was a problem and he didn't nearly have as much playmaking responsibilities/prowess as people revisionisticly remember. And then there's also the question of his defensive impact.

Also, I would argue that LeBron's supporting cast is underrated. All the talk is on LeBron carrying the Cavs offensively but it was their defense which was their calling card in both the regular season and playoffs (around -5 DRtg relative to average). In JE's multiyear DRAPM, Varejao is 7th and Big Z is top 30. Not a great supporting cast by any means but the defensive role players always get overlooked in a comparison like this.

Lmao, Bird instead of LeBron in that team and the offense goes from #18 ranked to #25-30 range. Bird was a clearly inferior scorer and playmaker, more turnover prone, had less versatile offensively and defensively than LeBron. Also didn't have a three point shot at that stage of his career. The defense probably gets worse too, although I think Bird was underrated defensively throughout most of his prime.

LA bird is going to use the bomb in his profile picture to destroy your arguement with words.

[Jetzger]

Lebron's never come close to Bird's rebounding that year at any point in his career, regardless of whether his team was a great rebounding team or crappy one (hello Miami). To just shrug that off is, well, stupid.

[LA Bird]

That's mostly BS.

What is BS? That LeBron's much improved post game and scoring in the paint isn't the reason why he is still one of the best offensive players with non-existent outside shooting? That Bird didn't play substantially better against a ~8 SRS opponent than LeBron did? You have to be more specific than that.

Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Rebounding is overrated. The Cavs were already the 2nd best rebounding team in 2007, they had plenty of guys capable of securing boards, why would LeBron (who's actually a lot more optimally used as the receiver of an outlet pass in transition) waste his team crashing the glass against mostly his own team? You really think if the goal of the game was which player can grab 10 rebounds first that Bird would be able to outrebound a 250 pound athletic monster boxing out with one of the greatest verticals in the history of the game? It's clear as day that Bird focused on rebounding the ball for his team more than LeBron did and that was mainly a strategic choice (like I said, LeBron wanted to be the receiver in transition, because his ability to make plays/baskets in transition is GOAT level, and not worth the trouble of rebounding the ball from what would likely be his teammate getting it).

Is this your own assumption or an explicitly stated coaching decision for LeBron to leak out instead of grabbing rebounds? Because that would be counter-intuitive to the success we see in OKC where the bigs intentionally let Westbrook crash the boards and go on his one man fastbreak to wreck opponent defense to the tune of 1.46PPP*. LeBron being the GOAT in transition does not mean he shouldn't grab defensive rebounds. Also, this from the poster above me:

Lebron's never come close to Bird's rebounding that year at any point in his career, regardless of whether his team was a great rebounding team or crappy one (hello Miami). To just shrug that off is, well, stupid.

* Source: Nylon Calculus

Spoiler:

Your comment about win shares doesn't make sense at all. There's plenty of dominant offensive players playing different styles that measure differently in WS. Shaq, Dirk, CP3, LeBron, Curry... doesn't seem like it would favor any particular breed of players clearly over others.

Bird took 4 more FGA's than Parish and only averaged 2 points more. He took 9 more FGA's than Maxwell and only averaged 6 points more. You do the math. Bird was also not even the main playmaker on his team, that was clearly Archibald.

I think Bird was the best player on that Celtic team, but his lack of efficiency was a problem and he didn't nearly have as much playmaking responsibilities/prowess as people revisionisticly remember.

Bird wasn't a dominant offensive player back in 1981 (neither was LeBron in 2007 btw) so I don't know where you are going with that. My original reply was about Bird's OWS relative to Parish and Maxwell's which quite clearly underrates his offensive impact. He was the best offensive player on the Celtics and if anything, it's the revisionists who have been penalizing him for his off ball play and shooting efficiency.

And then there's also the question of his defensive impact.

Do tell, what's the question about Bird's defense in 1981?

Lmao, Bird instead of LeBron in that team and the offense goes from #18 ranked to #25-30 range. Bird was a clearly inferior scorer and playmaker, more turnover prone, had less versatile offensively and defensively than LeBron. Also didn't have a three point shot at that stage of his career. The defense probably gets worse too, although I think Bird was underrated defensively throughout most of his prime.

#25~30. #30. I am not sure if this is a serious answer. 2007 was one of James' poorest offensive seasons in his prime and Cavs are going to be that much worse with Bird? Is 81 Bird only like a +1 ~ +1.5 on offense in your opinion?

[HeartBreakKid]

Bird but its close. I think he was better defensively and on offense, he was still highly effective out of the post both as a scorer and playmaker even if the shooting efficiency sometimes wasn't there (same reason why LeBron the last 2 seasons is a lot better offensively than his earlier versions despite the awful TS% IMO). In the playoffs, both had a disappointing finals but Bird beating the 7.8 SRS 76ers with MVP Dr J and Bobby Jones at his defensive peak in the conference finals (27/13/5 on 56% TS) was more impressive than what LeBron did against the Pistons.

That's mostly BS.

"Slightly" is an understatement. Bird dominated him in rebounding.

TRB% (regular season, playoffs)
James: 9.6 / 10.6
Bird: 15.7 / 17.6

Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Rebounding is overrated. The Cavs were already the 2nd best rebounding team in 2007, they had plenty of guys capable of securing boards, why would LeBron (who's actually a lot more optimally used as the receiver of an outlet pass in transition) waste his team crashing the glass against mostly his own team? You really think if the goal of the game was which player can grab 10 rebounds first that Bird would be able to outrebound a 250 pound athletic monster boxing out with one of the greatest verticals in the history of the game? It's clear as day that Bird focused on rebounding the ball for his team more than LeBron did and that was mainly a strategic choice (like I said, LeBron wanted to be the receiver in transition, because his ability to make plays/baskets in transition is GOAT level, and not worth the trouble of rebounding the ball from what would likely be his teammate getting it).

The difference is reflected in the team results, unless you are saying the better supporting cast precludes Bird from possibly having a better season. With regards to win shares, I think it overvalues high efficiency from finishing at the rim and undervalues the playmaker who initiates the offensive sequence. Bird was quite clearly the best player on the Celtics.

No, my point was that LeBron was the better player and would've made the '81 Celtics a better team, while Bird wouldn't win 50 games with that Cleveland cast.

Your comment about win shares doesn't make sense at all. There's plenty of dominant offensive players playing different styles that measure differently in WS. Shaq, Dirk, CP3, LeBron, Curry... doesn't seem like it would favor any particular breed of players clearly over others.

Bird took 4 more FGA's than Parish and only averaged 2 points more. He took 9 more FGA's than Maxwell and only averaged 6 points more. You do the math. Bird was also not even the main playmaker on his team, that was clearly Archibald.

I think Bird was the best player on that Celtic team, but his lack of efficiency was a problem and he didn't nearly have as much playmaking responsibilities/prowess as people revisionisticly remember. And then there's also the question of his defensive impact.

Also, I would argue that LeBron's supporting cast is underrated. All the talk is on LeBron carrying the Cavs offensively but it was their defense which was their calling card in both the regular season and playoffs (around -5 DRtg relative to average). In JE's multiyear DRAPM, Varejao is 7th and Big Z is top 30. Not a great supporting cast by any means but the defensive role players always get overlooked in a comparison like this.

Lmao, Bird instead of LeBron in that team and the offense goes from #18 ranked to #25-30 range. Bird was a clearly inferior scorer and playmaker, more turnover prone, had less versatile offensively and defensively than LeBron. Also didn't have a three point shot at that stage of his career. The defense probably gets worse too, although I think Bird was underrated defensively throughout most of his prime.

Yes? Rebounding has nothing to do with who is most athletic and has even less to do with who can jump the highest. I mean you do realize the two best rebounders on the Cavs can't jump very high, right?

[70sFan]

Let's look at stats:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=1981&p1=birdla01&y2=2007&p2=jamesle01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_game::none

LeBron looks slightly better, but Bird is much better rebounder, still a better shooter and I like his maturity on offense more than LeBron's at this point. Also, I think in this specific comparison Bird has defensive advantage - LeBron wasn't great defender yet and when I'm watching young Larry on defense, he looks very impactful. Also, he's arguably GOAT rebounding forward at this point of his career.