What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings?

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What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings?  

Post#1 » by RSCD3_ » Sun May 1, 2016 12:21 am

So breaking kobe's skills ( for example defending points, passing out of the pick and roll, handle, change in directions, attacking closeouts, isolations, posting up off ball movement, contested perimeter shooing etc )was kobe the goat or closest to goat at in his peak?

Make the categories as specific as you want, but what was the thing kobe did best relative to all wing players as a player in his peak?
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#2 » by Quotatious » Sun May 1, 2016 12:25 am

It's between isolation scoring and contested perimeter shooting. Well, I think it's isolation scoring, and he probably shot a lower percentage on contested perimeter shots than most people expect, but those two areas always stood out to me about Kobe, and his ability to make contested shots amazed me a lot of times, just based on eye-test, not looking at numbers. I'd say in terms of isolation scoring, he might be second all-time behind only Jordan (and maybe slightly behind '03 T-Mac).
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#3 » by Dr Spaceman » Sun May 1, 2016 1:10 am

Confidence.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#4 » by deezerweeze » Sun May 1, 2016 2:19 am

nice backhanded compliment^

the answer is his GOAT level shot-making and GOAT level craftiness. that's why he was able to maintain strong efficiency even when his athleticism fell off badly and also why he was able to dominate even though most of his teams had crappy spacing compared to what other superstar wings have had around them.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#5 » by gothehornets » Sun May 1, 2016 2:54 am

his work ethic and mental toughness
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Re: Re: Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#6 » by BullBearBidness » Sun May 1, 2016 2:58 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:Confidence.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#7 » by tsherkin » Sun May 1, 2016 3:00 am

deezerweeze wrote:nice backhanded compliment^

the answer is his GOAT level shot-making and GOAT level craftiness. that's why he was able to maintain strong efficiency even when his athleticism fell off badly and also why he was able to dominate even though most of his teams had crappy spacing compared to what other superstar wings have had around them.



Mmm, that's at odds with history. Kobe actually declined noticeably in terms of his efficiency post-2009, with a resurgence in the 2013 season. He looked a lot like Wizards Jordan with a mediocre 3, actually. Kobe had great footwork, and could clear space for a J pretty much any time, anywhere... and he did. Often. "Strong" does not describe his efficiency in his last half-decade or so, that's just inaccurate. It's EXPECTED, because I mean he was an older player and there's a real need for a baseline level of physical ability, particularly if you aren't usually a very good 3pt shooter.

In his day, he was a legend of the game. He played a long time, though, and a mix of Father Time and the realities of the game eventually had him decline. Even in his post-04 hey-day, though, he wasn't ever quite as good as his reputation would have one believe in terms of making shots in general (or in the clutch). Kobe's brilliance was in his ability to be a net positive as a super-volume scorer who could also move the ball pretty damned well when he so chose.

Confidence isn't a bad answer. I don't think Kobe was really GOAT-level in any particular area, but he had a pretty strong level of skill in many areas, which worked out for him. He could post, he was a very good volume mid-range shooter. He had strong handles and body control, plus the confidence to take basically any shot. Kobe had above-average ability all over the place; notably above average, at that, and strong physical tools. But GOAT-level stuff? You can find better finishers around the rim, way better clutch players, better shooters, better handles, better rebounders, better playmakers (although he is sometimes underrated there and suffers from a strange "inefficient" label which isn't accurate), better defenders, etc. Kobe's strength was that he lacked a skill weakness.

There wasn't anything he couldn't do to at least a decent level. He was a complete player. He periodically had some issues with overshooting, and he didn't have GOAT physical tools (though he was quite athletic as a younger guy). Like MJ, he couldn't really accept not being the main gun on offense, though that was a two-sided deal which was simultaneously strength and weakness.

But GOAT-level stuff? I don't think there was anywhere he was truly a contender for GOAT in a given skill.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#8 » by Domejandro » Sun May 1, 2016 3:36 am

Offensive footwork. I know it is cliché to say that about Kobe, but he was terrific at creating his own shot in traffic.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#9 » by tsherkin » Sun May 1, 2016 3:39 am

Domejandro wrote:Offensive footwork. I know it is cliché to say that about Kobe, but he was terrific at creating his own shot in traffic.


Hmmm. Maybe. His footwork was pretty damned good, live-dribble, post, whatever. I don't think it WAS GOAT, but the OP asks for closest-to, so this might qualify. Definitely a big-time strength.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#10 » by Volcano » Sun May 1, 2016 4:08 am

I would say it's his ability to take tough mid-range jumpers
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#11 » by LakerLegend » Sun May 1, 2016 4:37 am

He's easily the best shooter/shotmaker off the dribble.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#12 » by toodles23 » Sun May 1, 2016 5:23 am

Lakerfan17 wrote:He's easily the best shooter/shotmaker off the dribble.

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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#13 » by 2klegend » Sun May 1, 2016 9:37 am

Kobe is above average in all area of basketball skills. He doesn't have GOAT level basketball skill in any category. Footwork, sure, but is it really better than Hakeem, Jordan? That debatable.
My Top 100+ GOAT (Peak, Prime, Longevity, Award):
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#14 » by deezerweeze » Sun May 1, 2016 10:58 am

tsherkin wrote:
Mmm, that's at odds with history.

Not really.

Kobe actually declined noticeably in terms of his efficiency post-2009, with a resurgence in the 2013 season. He looked a lot like Wizards Jordan with a mediocre 3, actually.


Except Bryant 09-13 was far, far more efficient and a in another universe as a player. He was nothing like Wizards Jordan despite having more mileage on his legs, which is just more evidence that the separation between the two came from Jordan's far athleticism and nothing else. I wasn't talking about the post-Achilles tear version of Bryant, obviously.

Kobe had great footwork, and could clear space for a J pretty much any time, anywhere... and he did. Often. "Strong" does not describe his efficiency in his last half-decade or so, that's just inaccurate. It's EXPECTED, because I mean he was an older player and there's a real need for a baseline level of physical ability, particularly if you aren't usually a very good 3pt shooter.


In 2013 he was 34 yrs old and in his 17th season and had already played well over 50,000+ min. He had already seen a huge decline in athleticism and was still putting up 27+/6/6 at 57.3% TS +3.5 rel TS%, which is strong, and that doesn't happen without the stuff I mentioned i.e GOAT level shot-making and craftiness. Compare him to somebody like Wade now. The difference at 34 is astronomical in Bryant's favor despite his much higher level mileage. Hell, he already seen a huge decline in athleticism by 2009 and 2010, and was putting together incredible playoff runs as a top 2-3 player in the game. Again, something that doesn't happen without being GOAT level at certain aspects.

In his day, he was a legend of the game. He played a long time, though, and a mix of Father Time and the realities of the game eventually had him decline. Even in his post-04 hey-day, though, he wasn't ever quite as good as his reputation would have one believe in terms of making shots in general (or in the clutch).


Yeah, he kinda was. One of the best scorers in history and one of the most clutch players of time.

Kobe's brilliance was in his ability to be a net positive as a super-volume scorer who could also move the ball pretty damned well when he so chose.

Its funny how you people always feel the need to add that "when he chose" nonsense. The fact is, he's easily one of the 5 best passing SG's ever, one of the best non-PG playmakers/creators ever, a guy who made astonishing offensive impact on a bunch of great offenses, and was the primary playmaker on five different championship teams. He was a plenty willing and great passer.

Even haters like Lowe acknowledge it:

He’s still a fantastic passer when he wants to be, reading the floor three steps ahead like a score-first Jason Kidd “


“Bryant is a great passer. “


“He’s a savant at anticipating defensive rotations, rather than reacting to ones that have already happened, and spotting the right player.”


“Kobe is a wonderful passer, and always has been.”



“Bryant showed off his very subtle and very potent basketball intelligence.”


Confidence isn't a bad answer. I don't think Kobe was really GOAT-level in any particular area, but he had a pretty strong level of skill in many areas, which worked out for him. He could post, he was a very good volume mid-range shooter. He had strong handles and body control, plus the confidence to take basically any shot. Kobe had above-average ability all over the place; notably above average, at that, and strong physical tools. But GOAT-level stuff? You can find better finishers around the rim, way better clutch players, better shooters, better handles, better rebounders, better playmakers (although he is sometimes underrated there and suffers from a strange "inefficient" label which isn't accurate), better defenders, etc. Kobe's strength was that he lacked a skill weakness.

GOAT level footwork. GOAT level shot-making. GOAT level understanding of movement, angles, and balance. GOAT level ability to adjust to declining athleticism...athleticism that was never anywhere near the other all-timers, but that's just more evidence that he's one of the greatest overachievers in history.
There wasn't anything he couldn't do to at least a decent level. He was a complete player. He periodically had some issues with overshooting, and he didn't have GOAT physical tools (though he was quite athletic as a younger guy). Like MJ, he couldn't really accept not being the main gun on offense, though that was a two-sided deal which was simultaneously strength and weakness.

Except he was perfectly willing to accept not being the main gun on offense, which is why he was able to do such incredible things with Shaq. And if you have one of the ten best offensive players of all-time on your time...well, he should be the main gun. That's a silly criticism.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#15 » by deezerweeze » Sun May 1, 2016 11:26 am

I forget to add...GOAT level post-up guard.

Lead league in post-up efficiency in 2013.

Lowe:

Among 106 players to finish at least 75 post-ups with a shot, drawn foul, or turnover, Bryant was the most efficient in the league, per Synergy Sports. The most efficient! At age 34! He hit 55 percent of his post-up shots and produced 1.05 points per possession from the block, per Synergy. Factor in passes from the block, and only one of those 106 players leaps past Kobe in points per possession on post-ups: Kevin Durant.


More on his GOAT level shot-making.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/courtvision-kobe-bryant-and-the-elbow-test/

Mid-range percentages far above league-average on ridiculous volume.


Over the past six seasons, his favorite shot away from the rim has been near the elbows, particularly near the right elbow (graphic left), where he has attempted 1,900 shots, making 45 percent of them, which is 6 percent above the NBA average from that area. Six percent may not seem like a lot, but in baseball, 6 percent separates a .260 hitter from a .320 hitter, which is obviously significant.


Even those impressive efficiency percentages still obscure what makes Kobe the most remarkable midrange jump shooter in the league. It’s about the volume, you guys. Yes, he’s way above average near the elbows, but that Kobe can and does generate those jumpers at will is truly remarkable, especially considering he plays in a league full of defenders who have watched his moves for 15 years or more. Unlike other superstars who share an affinity for that deep elbow shot — catch-and-shoot bigs like Marc Gasol, Chris Bosh, or Kevin Garnett — Bryant frequently creates that shot for himself in the face of the defense. He employs those aforementioned ballet techniques and sneaky old-guy tricks to generate his own clean looks. Given the level of difficulty associated with the average Kobe Bryant midrange jumper, it’s stunning that his efficiency there is as good as or better than that of guys who simply catch and shoot open looks.


I once spoke with a former NBA player who told me that most of the guys he played with in the league could shoot great and with great form in practice, but the real games moved so fast they could never quite get into proper position.

"If I could shoot the way I wanted, I would still be in the NBA," he told me. "The leap in talent is so astronomical that it affects you in all these tiny ways that fans don't see, like not being able to shoot properly, even though you know what you should be doing if you had those few extra milliseconds of time like you did in college."

There are SO many intricate things that affect shot form that goes unnoticed. Bryant, by far, was the king of two things:

Taking tough shots under heavy duress, basically making shots outside of "normal form" and taking contested shots as if the defender wasn't there.

This is why he was so terrifying in his prime.

Pop on Bryant:
Bryant’s Lakers beat the Spurs both times they matched up in the Western Conference Finals, in 2001 and 2008, and on Friday Popovich described the terror that was preparing his defense for Bryant.

“No matter what you did defensively,” Popovich said, “he still could rise up over you and get off a relatively uncontested shot with balance. That would scare you, because there was really no defense for it.”


Popovich added: “He did that against many people, including us, many times.”


Despite his respect for Bryant, Popovich expressed relief in not having to face Bryant again. He called preparing for the 18-time All-Star “a lot scarier” than vice-versa, saying “there’s really no defense” for his ability to rise up for a jumper over any type of coverage thrown at him.


Chip Engelland on Bryant:
What's more,because Bryant is so accurate with his jumper, very few shots that he takeswould qualify as bad ones. Just ask Chip Engelland, the respected shootingcoach and Spurs assistant who has worked with Grant Hill and Steve Kerr, amongothers (and whom Battier called for defensive advice on the day of Game 1).Asked what he would do if Kobe came to him for help on his jumper, Engellandlaughs, then says, "I would rebound." No really, Chip, what would youdo? He thinks for a moment. "Maybe I'd work on shooting while fatigued, butthat's about it. His technical form is amazing. He's one of the great jumpshooters of our time."


His all-around shooting ability was up there with damn near anyone in history.

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Goldsberry_Sloan_Submission.pdf
Kobe Bryant has the highest spread value in the NBA (table 1); Bryant’s value of 1,071 indicates he has attempted field goals in 1,071 of the 1,284 shooting cells or 83.4% of the scoring area

These Spread visualizations reveal a player’s basic shooting tendencies, but tell us nothing about potency.
Shooting skill requires more than just attempts; the best shooters in the league are able to make baskets at effective rates from many court locations. To describe the spatial potency of players we created a metric called “Range,” which is a count of the number of unique shooting cells in which a player averages at least 1 point per attempt (PPA). PPA varies considerably around the court. As anyone who has ever shot a basketball knows, the probability of a shot attempt resulting in a made basket is spatially dependent; some shots are easier than others, and some players are unable to shot effectively from most court locations. Range accounts for spatial influences on shooting effectiveness. It is essentially a count of the number of shooting cells in which a player averages more than 1 PPA; we chose PPA over FG% because it inherently accounts for the differences between 2-point and 3-point field goal
attempts.


By dividing this count by 1,284 and multiplying by 100, we generated Range%, which indicates the
value of 406, indicating that percentage of the scoring area in which a player averages more than 1 PPA. Steve Nash is ranked first. He has a Range he averages over 1 PPA from 406 unique shooting cells, or 31.6% of the scoring area. Ray Allen was ranked second (30.1%), Kobe Bryant (29.8%) was third, and Dirk Nowitzki (29.0%) was fourth
Player Spread %
1. Kobe Bryant 1,071 83.4%
2. Lebron James 1,047 81.5%
3. Vince Carter 1,005 78.3%
4. Joe Johnson 992 77.3%
5. Rudy Gay 983 76.6%
6. Antawn Jamison 965 75.2%
7. Andre Igudola 962 74.9%
8. Ray Allen 952 74.1%
8. Kevin Durant 949 73.9%
10. Danny Granger 948 73.8%
Table 1: Top 10 players in Spread metric


Player Range %
1. Steve Nash 406 31.6%
2. Ray Allen 386 30.1%
3. Kobe Bryant 383 29.8%
4. Dirk Nowitzki 373 29.0%
5. Rashard Lewis 354 27.6%
6. Joe Johnson 352 27.4%
7. Vince Carter 343 26.7%
8. Paul Pierce 332 25.9%
8. Rudy Gay 332 25.9%
10. Danny Granger 331 25.8%
Table 2: Top 10 players in Range metric



Yeah, I think I'll listen to the best basketball writer in the world, the best coach in the world, and the best shooting coach in the world over a bunch of haters and their silly narratives.

Kobe was the most skilled player in history.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#16 » by Jaivl » Sun May 1, 2016 11:33 am

deezerweeze wrote:silly narratives.

Kobe was the most skilled player in history.

Still not as skilled as Jordan lol

deezerweeze wrote:Yeah, he kinda was. One of the best scorers in history

Absolutely.

deezerweeze wrote:and one of the most clutch players of time.

Absolutely not.
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Re: What skillset of kobe's game was goat the closest to goat level for wings? 

Post#17 » by AceofSpades69 » Sun May 1, 2016 2:15 pm

I'd say iso-scoring aswell.

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