All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit WC1R - (1) AustinCarr61 vs (8) wojoaderge

[wojoaderge]

2) Is this underestimating how good Battier (Draymond if it seemed necessary/useful) with Duncan behind them is

No, I don't think so. Dantley was game-planned for from Buffalo all way through to Detroit (except for maybe less in LA, when opposing teams had even bigger things to worry about) and was always guarded (unsuccessfully) by a power foward. Duncan is out on the perimeter, shadowing Sabonis

4) Even if one isn't inclinded towards interpreting Dantley as a big ball-stopper (I trend sympathetic on him, but think there may be an element of this, if perhaps overstated), isn't emphasising a one on one matchup counterintuitive in all-time teams?

I don't get this. Every other team is doing the same thing

5) If we do a referena position by position even if Dantley wins, doesn't peak Duncan beat 2000 Sabonis very handily (why not take '96), doesn't Wade best Moncrief (or Taylor if that's the matchup), Battier beat Brown etc?

I never made this argument

I'm also not buying that these aren't weaker versions of players. For instance Jones' block percentage is nearly half what it was the preceding year, and about 2/3s his career number, his turnover percentage its highest and his composite metrics, across the board the weakest they had been in his career (only then superceded by his final year). And I note this particular instance because Jones was my favourite pick of yours (and someone who, unlike a Freddy Brown, I thought might not have been on the board at the point you took him - if he spaced the floor a bit better he'd be about the perfect player for this format), but due to the version selected, is difficult to think of as a high impact player, and indeed is given the lowest minutes. Then too aging Sabonis playing 30mpg. A wonderful player but I'd buy a "he could manage more minutes than he did" argument on a younger version more than an older one, and rookie Sabas is only 0.8 fga more expensive, better pretty much across the board and ended up playing bigger minutes as the season went on.

It's an interesting team, with many players I like, but too flawed at this level.

Yes, I admitted he was a "veteran." I really tried to take those same exact seasons for Jones and Sabas that you mentioned, but in the end I wanted Brian Taylor's 1974-75 defense over his 1980-81 3-pt shooting and passing. Btw, what's wrong with Downtown's spacing?

Don't particularly want to go too much in for point-for-point because it's unseemly in this context and tbh this particular matchup seems academic at this point but ...

Sabonis shot .268 for his NBA career at the full distance three. So depending what you mean "on the perimeter" I suspect teams will live with Sabonis taking long shots with attempts to recover on him (significantly better in the year selected but on a sample of just 19 attempts). And as noted Battier is not the only option. And Battier was an elite defender. Nor am I convinced that a SF is a dreadful matchup on him defensively, sure he was a post scorer (perhaps moreso earlier?) but despite a lower center of gravity it wasn't like he was all about establishing great post position, more than technique.

I don't believe any other team had a post whose primary pro-focus was you can't guard this one guy. If they did, and especially if that guy has a Dantley-esque reputation (and again, I lean sympathetic), I suspect they will be "punished" by voters. In the one noteable instance it was mentioned as a specific matchup feature, as part of larger post, trex criticized Q for it (albeit largely because of the quality of the player in question - Rodney Rogers).

Two "rebuttals" to long posts have essentially been, "can't stop Dantley" (There's thus a signifcant impression that you think Dantley's matchup is, almost singlehandedly decisive). And one easy counterpoint is Sabonis can't guard Duncan (etc).

Regarding spacing, the point was about Jones. A Jones who spaced the floor better would be near-perfect in this format. Low shot volume, high-efficiency, draws fouls, low ego, high bb-IQ, elite defender and a pretty good passer - add in 3 point range and you've got a prototype. On "veteran" that was couched / surrounded by "but it doesn't matter because ..." natured statements and in this instance (and Sabonis's and Dantley's ...) it clearly does matter.

Well, matchups are important, what I can say? And yes, imho Sabonis can guard Duncan much better than Battier can guard Dantley. Regarding Jones, I said this Jones is as not as good as that the previous year's incarnation, but he would he have the same role for me regardless. I think the differences between the Sabonis seasons are marginal.

[lorak]

I love AustinCarr61’s team on both ends of the floor. Green fits so well with not full time playmakers like Cooper and Wade. I really don’t see any flaws on that team, as it might be the best roster in this tournament. On the other hand Wojoaderge’s team has very good D on perimeter (however didn’t Moncrief had problems with athletic guards like Wade? I mean even rookie Jordan beat him rather badly, didn’t he?), but bad in the paint, 3 players very past prime years, I’m not sure how Dantley would work with McAdoo on offense… And I disagree that no one can guard Dantley as Green and Battier are ideal personnel to such task. The thing I like the best about your team Wojoaderge is that you picked Smith and Taylor. Very good forgotten players. Anyway, I vote for AustinCarr.

[Owly]

On the other hand Wojoaderge’s team has very good D on perimeter (however didn’t Moncrief had problems with athletic guards like Wade? I mean even rookie Jordan beat him rather badly, didn’t he?)

Hmmm, depends what you mean. Jordan certainly scored. But "beat" suggests net performance and Moncrief shot .717 TS% with a 8.7 turnover percentage, leading to a 150 Ortg in their 4 game playoff series (albeit some of that is Moncrief having a very good series from the line, not a consequence of his matchup). There's the RS sample too of course where Michael seems to have done well (though this is MJ) without looking at any depth (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=moncrsi01&p2=jordami01). I don't know I guess I'd want more to buy into that or extrapolation on what Moncrief did versus MJ.


I don't recall a suggestion that he struggled with jets, though Pen might recall more than me. It's academic at this point anyhow, but in case it comes up in other rounds, I'd give my impression on that.

[Edit] Just thought, and it [Moncrief] likely won't come up in future rounds given the team and voting at this point, so it's just a curiosity.

[lorak]

On the other hand Wojoaderge’s team has very good D on perimeter (however didn’t Moncrief had problems with athletic guards like Wade? I mean even rookie Jordan beat him rather badly, didn’t he?)

Hmmm, depends what you mean. Jordan certainly scored. But "beat" suggests net performance

My point was that Moncrief's defense wasn't good against such athletic and skilled players.

If you want to talk about overall performance, then at least box score suggests that MJ performed better in his rookie year:

Code: Select all

PLAYER   G   TS%   PPG   TRB   AST   STL   BLK   TOV   PF   MPG
MJ   10   59,4   29,0   6,1   7,1   2,7   1,1   3,5   3,6   40,2
SM   10   59,7   24,7   4,1   4,2   0,8   0,4   2,6   3,1   40,1


[Quotatious]

Poll added (AustinCarr61 and wojoaderge please don't vote )

[Doctor MJ]

Y'know, Austin's team just makes more sense to me.

When I see guys like Dantley & McAdoo, it makes me ask, "How will the team work together?", and I'm still struggling to really visualize it. Austin's team is clear to me with solid balance, and would be my non-officlal choice.