Can LeBron catch MJ and be GOAT in your list?

[Shot Clock]

LeBron has the highest regular season AND playoff +/- career total of any player in NBA history.

Not doubting you, but is this accurate? SSB, Quotatious, Dr. MJ, et. al can confirm?

I read it in a business.com or forbes.com article today, I forget which one.

Unless someone found a hidden archive somehwere I don't think we have +/- for most of league history.

[Joao Saraiva]

lol Not Klay though. I give you Draymond, Iggy, and Leonard as great defender Lebron face. We will never know how Jordan would face those guys. What I do know is Lebron didn't do that well against them. Lebron only start to have good games against Iggy when he got back spasm.

LeBron faced those guys in the last 4 finals and he averaged 30/9/6, 46 FG%, 38 3P%. Looks like he did pretty good against them.

This is where you have to watch the game to see how Lebron struggled. Like last year against the Warriors with a healthy Iggy, he was dropping 36/13/9 and you would think that is hardly a struggle but then you dial deeper, you realize Lebron is having a 41% usage and with a .47ts%. Also this is not mentioning Lebron had a habit of stat padding when the game is over.

Most games were actually close. That "the game was over" is a nice excuse.

Game 1: went into overtime, and Cleveland scored 2 point (from LeBron). Was he stat padding 42 points in regulation with a game that went to OT?

Game 2: was decided in OT once again. This time by two points. What a stat padder. How dare he make 39 points when the game was over. When was that? Did he score the points alone in the arena after the OT?

Game 3: decided by 5 points. 40 points for LeBron... is this the stat padding you were talking about?

Game 4: 20 points. Cavs lost by 20. He was gassed and Cleveland never got into the game. Seems like that was the time he didn't have 40 or close...

Game 5: 37 points came with the game on the line, with less than a 5 point diferencial. The last 3 were scored with 2 minutes to go and a 10 point deficit (so it was still possible). But please, show me the stat padd.

Game 6: 32 points. The one shooting it in the end (and actually pretty well and giving the Cavs somehow a little window) was JR Smith. So As you see, no stat padd once again.

Care to justify your statement after this? Yes videos are available on youtube. I can post them here if you wish.

[MyUniBroDavis]

As I predicted, all I'm seeing/hearing/reading is that LeBron now rivals MJ and could pass him as Greatest Ever. HILARIOUSLY ABSURD.
MJ never melted down in playoff series vs Celts or Finals vs Mavs. MJ never came apart down Game 6 stretch & had to be saved by Ray Allen.
MJ never lost a Finals to Spurs in 5 BY A RECORD MARGIN while playing 4 weirdly lackluster games. LeBron did in 2014.
MJ never benefitted from a Draymond suspension, a Bogut knee injury and a back issue suffered by his nemesis defender Iguodala. LBJ did
Michael Jordan had the greatest clutch gene ever. LeBron, not so much.
Maybe LeBron could've hit the Game 7 step-back three Kyrie did to win the championship, but that has not been his history or forte.
So please don't tell me LeBron James, great as he is, will ever even sniff the legacy of Michael Jordan, who went 6-0 in Finals with 6 MVPs.

Words from the great skip bayless

[afox]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....he has to do something like he just did, several more times for the comparison to start to make sense...let's not forget the first half of this series....where was he?...he got his numbers, so you guys would say he was ok...when there was an obvious difference in his play...point blank layups...and let's not forget...he was the biggest player on the floor the majority of the series...he should dominate!! It took 13 years to do something MJ worthy, and everyone knows it...Back to Kawhi...look at his number comparatively the last what...4 games was it...he outplayed him when it matters...something James fans don't get....when and where mean everything...Quotatious has the reg season meaning as much as playoffs....lol...how about preseason??lol The playoffs is where legacies are made, and they are decided by who wins the most, and comes thru when it matters the most...just the way it is...Congrats guys, you're guy finally did something to be proud of...but let's not act like the Green suspension didn't play a part...the whole series turned on that...and this James beat a 73 win team thing...great job, but it's not like he was the 73 win team, lol...You guys treat it the same as winning that many....He got the upset...MJ was on the other side, talk about pressure...

[crazy_me_87]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4

Its really funny how you choose to focus on his last 4 Finals...
How about his last 5? He is 3/5 in his last 5 Finals.

And there is no "he should have"... his 14 Point 4th Quarter in Game 6 vs SA only made Allens three even Possible. And he absolutly delivered in Game 7. The Cavs this year proved beeing on the Road in a Game 7 is no excuse to not win.

[ThreeMileAllan]

Well when the +/- indicates how well you and your team does when you are on the floor, I would say there is no other way in interpreting it than a really good thing.

And when we are talking abou tthe 2 most dominant players in the history of the NBA, I would also say that the fact LeBron has the highest impact in averaging all of his regular season games together and averaing all of his postseason games together of anybody in the history of the NBA, that is a check in his box that Jordan doesnt have.

Strenght of opponent counts, your teammates producing counts, etc.

On a large sample of course it means something, but I wouldn't say it is a decisive factor.

Just being devils advocate here:

Then why do people put so much stock into championship rings because the same things you mentioned apply there as well. MJ played with a team full of HOFers and All-stars....all of the time. LeBron just won a championship with zero all stars or HOFers and he took a team in 2007 to the Finals with not a single player on the team with even 1 ASG appearance, but people still count him losing that Finals against him with the whole "well blah blah blah hes only 3-4 in the Finals hes not MJ blah"

MJ played with

Pippen
Kerr
Rodman
Ron Harper
Toni Kukoc
Luc Longley
Robert Parish

LeBron played with

Larry Hughes
Anderson Varajao
Sasha Pavolavic
Drew Gooden
Boobie Gibson
Ira Newble

Matt Dellevedova
Iman Shumpert
JR Smith
Tomofey Mozgov


IF we are taking everything into account. You cannot blast LeBron for 2 of those Finals losses. If he gets critisized in 2011 for the Mavericks series, he gets a free pass for those 2 series where it took him to almost average a 40 point triple double every game of the Finals just to get 2 wins in the series.

I think it's fair to remove those Cavs losses as free passes.

So that puts him 3-2 which is fair. More like Magic territory.

evvvvveeeryone!

[Mazter]

Jordan was 32 years old in the '96 Finals, 5/6 years beyond his peak. You think this version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVmCCKNgPlc) of MJ gets shut down so easily?

Well, depends on what you call shut down.

In that series, Jordan averaged 39.3ppg on .623TS...in their 3 wins. Yet he averaged 26.8ppg on .518TS in their 4 losses. Did the Pistons shut him down completely, it's debatable. But they did just enough to slow him down and send him packing...for the third straight year.

As a matter of fact, Jordan in his prime against the Pistons during the Jordan rules (without the triangle):
45.0ppg on .685TS in 3 wins, 27.9ppg on .514TS in 14 losses during the regular season, vs other teams 33.9ppg on .612TS.
38.7ppg on .616TS in 6 wins, 25.7ppg on .524TS in 12 losses during the post season, vs other teams 40.0ppg on .618TS.

For me that's enough of a drop off to say that he was shut down in his prime by the only team that really tried something else to slow him down. In this era with all available footage, data and manpower Jordan would be analyzed to death by every opponent and he would face a different set of Jordan rule every game he played. And there would be no triangle offense to save his behind.

[Mulhollanddrive]

I once read a guy lecture InsideHoops about why Kobe was better than Jordan, and he then said he was born in 1993 lol.

[jaypo]

As I predicted, all I'm seeing/hearing/reading is that LeBron now rivals MJ and could pass him as Greatest Ever. HILARIOUSLY ABSURD.
MJ never melted down in playoff series vs Celts or Finals vs Mavs. MJ never came apart down Game 6 stretch & had to be saved by Ray Allen.
MJ never lost a Finals to Spurs in 5 BY A RECORD MARGIN while playing 4 weirdly lackluster games. LeBron did in 2014.
MJ never benefitted from a Draymond suspension, a Bogut knee injury and a back issue suffered by his nemesis defender Iguodala. LBJ did
Michael Jordan had the greatest clutch gene ever. LeBron, not so much.
Maybe LeBron could've hit the Game 7 step-back three Kyrie did to win the championship, but that has not been his history or forte.
So please don't tell me LeBron James, great as he is, will ever even sniff the legacy of Michael Jordan, who went 6-0 in Finals with 6 MVPs.

Words from the great skip bayless

There's one in every crowd. Oh well. Let me tell you a story. A story of 2 average NBA players, named Magic and Larry legend. They were in a photo shoot for the Dream Team (1992). Joining them was NBA superstar, Michael "Air" Jordan. It was a case of the old lions welcoming the new lion. As the new lion sat down with the old lions to take the pic, the old "Magic" lion tells the "Legend" lion, "don't touch Michael or it's a foul"!

So even back then, before he won his 2nd title, it was widely known that MJ got special treatment from the refs. So don't tell me that MJ didn't benefit from anything. Let's not forget the push off against Bryon Russell!

I distinctly remember Paxson hitting the game winner for a title. I distinctly remember Steve Kerr hitting a game winner for a title. I distinctly remember a Bull's big man blocking Charles Smith to seal the game for a title. So tell me again why Ray Allen hitting a 3 is so much worse on Lebron's legacy than those 3 alone?

You're right. Kyrie did hit the go ahead bucket in game 7. However, I distinctly remember Lebron James being fouled on a 3 and hitting all FT's. I distinctly remember Lebron James hitting a 3 to tie the game. So Kyrie's 3 to go ahead are more important than 6 to put Kyrie in the position to hit the go ahead bucket? Who was it that made the impossible block? That wasn't clutch?

Oh, as far as "Clutch gene", well, the numbers pretty much disprove that thoery. In fact, they tilt the scale in Lebron's favor!

Skip, it must suck being you. Living your whole life waiting for someone you hate to fail. Yet, he keeps proving you wrong over and over again, so much so, that when you get your dream job, you become a punchline to those that have worked with you for years!

[jaypo]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....he has to do something like he just did, several more times for the comparison to start to make sense...let's not forget the first half of this series....where was he?...he got his numbers, so you guys would say he was ok...when there was an obvious difference in his play...point blank layups...and let's not forget...he was the biggest player on the floor the majority of the series...he should dominate!! It took 13 years to do something MJ worthy, and everyone knows it...Back to Kawhi...look at his number comparatively the last what...4 games was it...he outplayed him when it matters...something James fans don't get....when and where mean everything...Quotatious has the reg season meaning as much as playoffs....lol...how about preseason??lol The playoffs is where legacies are made, and they are decided by who wins the most, and comes thru when it matters the most...just the way it is...Congrats guys, you're guy finally did something to be proud of...but let's not act like the Green suspension didn't play a part...the whole series turned on that...and this James beat a 73 win team thing...great job, but it's not like he was the 73 win team, lol...You guys treat it the same as winning that many....He got the upset...MJ was on the other side, talk about pressure...

So you think Wilt is the best, right? That's what you're saying, and it's fair. But that means he's better than MJ, right? "Should've lost all 4". But "didn't". So that goes out the window. James is the only one that misses layups? MJ made every one, right? MJ's career FG%- 49.7%. LBJ's- 49.8%. So tell me again how LBJ misses so many shots! Turnovers? MJ averaged 2.38 per 82 games. LBJ- 3.11. He turned the ball over a WHOPPING .73 times more than MJ! How careless of him!! BUUUUUT, Lebron averages 6.9 assists to MJ's 5.3. So even if that extra .73 turnover translated into a 3 and Lebron's 1.6 only translated into 2 pt buckets, LBJ still has the edge by 1 point per game!!! The truth hurts, huh? When and where mean everything? How about down 3-1 to the team that won the most games in history without HCA. How about scoring 41 twice in a row in elimination games and putting up a triple double in game 7 on the road? I'd say the "when and where" don't get any better than that. Oh, and Lebron has NEVER had a supporting cast anywhere NEAR the ones MJ had. Pippen, Ho Grant, Cartwright, Paxson/Craig Hodges. Then, Kucoc, Rodman, Longley, Kerr, Harper. Hell, put that around Lebron these days, and he wins 6 in a row! BTW, has MJ ever lead all players in a series, let alone a finals, in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals? Against a team that won more games than MJ's very own Bulls??? LBJ just did that!

I personally have MJ as the best ever, and I don't think Lebron is yet above KAJ, Russell, or Shaq. However, the reasons you are using are clearly nothing more than your MJ bias and/or hatred for Lebron. The man just did something historic. Sorry if your feelings are hurt because of it. But it happened. And it validated Lebron's legacy.

[BasketballFan7]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....

[countryboy667]

Of course--the process has already begun with the passage of time...unlike baseball fans who are keenly aware of and celebrate the game's history and past greats, NBA fans tend to be young with little or no perspective on the past, which is clearly exemplified on this board. Jordan is history, a fading memory except in the minds of fans approaching middle age. As those fans get older and Jordan's memory becomes more distant, their opinions will be dismissed as "old men shouting at clouds." as they defend Jordan's legacy. LeBron will reign, at least until some new flavor of the moth (Curry?) comes along. Hey, if Wilt and Russell and Oscar and West can be blithely dismissed as scrubs in today's game, it can--and eventually will--happen to Jordan as well.

[Superbasketball]

Lebron is already or will be at least #2 when it is done. Unless Lebron ends up playing subpar moving forward.

[afox]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4

Its really funny how you choose to focus on his last 4 Finals...
How about his last 5? He is 3/5 in his last 5 Finals.

And there is no "he should have"... his 14 Point 4th Quarter in Game 6 vs SA only made Allens three even Possible. And he absolutly delivered in Game 7. The Cavs this year proved beeing on the Road in a Game 7 is no excuse to not win.

The one guy referenced the last 4 Finals defenders...

[afox]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....

Keeps me warm...mmmm...

[afox]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....he has to do something like he just did, several more times for the comparison to start to make sense...let's not forget the first half of this series....where was he?...he got his numbers, so you guys would say he was ok...when there was an obvious difference in his play...point blank layups...and let's not forget...he was the biggest player on the floor the majority of the series...he should dominate!! It took 13 years to do something MJ worthy, and everyone knows it...Back to Kawhi...look at his number comparatively the last what...4 games was it...he outplayed him when it matters...something James fans don't get....when and where mean everything...Quotatious has the reg season meaning as much as playoffs....lol...how about preseason??lol The playoffs is where legacies are made, and they are decided by who wins the most, and comes thru when it matters the most...just the way it is...Congrats guys, you're guy finally did something to be proud of...but let's not act like the Green suspension didn't play a part...the whole series turned on that...and this James beat a 73 win team thing...great job, but it's not like he was the 73 win team, lol...You guys treat it the same as winning that many....He got the upset...MJ was on the other side, talk about pressure...

So you think Wilt is the best, right? That's what you're saying, and it's fair. But that means he's better than MJ, right? "Should've lost all 4". But "didn't". So that goes out the window. James is the only one that misses layups? MJ made every one, right? MJ's career FG%- 49.7%. LBJ's- 49.8%. So tell me again how LBJ misses so many shots! Turnovers? MJ averaged 2.38 per 82 games. LBJ- 3.11. He turned the ball over a WHOPPING .73 times more than MJ! How careless of him!! BUUUUUT, Lebron averages 6.9 assists to MJ's 5.3. So even if that extra .73 turnover translated into a 3 and Lebron's 1.6 only translated into 2 pt buckets, LBJ still has the edge by 1 point per game!!! The truth hurts, huh? When and where mean everything? How about down 3-1 to the team that won the most games in history without HCA. How about scoring 41 twice in a row in elimination games and putting up a triple double in game 7 on the road? I'd say the "when and where" don't get any better than that. Oh, and Lebron has NEVER had a supporting cast anywhere NEAR the ones MJ had. Pippen, Ho Grant, Cartwright, Paxson/Craig Hodges. Then, Kucoc, Rodman, Longley, Kerr, Harper. Hell, put that around Lebron these days, and he wins 6 in a row! BTW, has MJ ever lead all players in a series, let alone a finals, in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals? Against a team that won more games than MJ's very own Bulls??? LBJ just did that!

I personally have MJ as the best ever, and I don't think Lebron is yet above KAJ, Russell, or Shaq. However, the reasons you are using are clearly nothing more than your MJ bias and/or hatred for Lebron. The man just did something historic. Sorry if your feelings are hurt because of it. But it happened. And it validated Lebron's legacy.

Just using the eye test...something no one on here does...I used Wilt as a reference for best if we go by numbers...just making an example...I watched MJ...Don't know how anyone that did, could think James is even close... I still have Duncan and others over James...And again you go with the numbers to end....

[ceiling raiser]

Just using the eye test...something no one on here does...

Everyone does. But no two people have the same eye test.

[Superbasketball]

AFox is a Lebron hater so he isn't going to give Lebron full credit. So you have Bird over Lebron because you are a NE fan?

[Joao Saraiva]

Again with you James guys...numbers don't mean everything....especially if you're losing....Guy who quoted last 4 Finals...he lost 2...and should have lost all 4...lol.....if numbers are so important...I'll take the guy who averaged 50 and 25 as the best ever...James misses point blank layups....he has horrible turnovers with no pressure....he looks very human a lot of the time....his jumper...nuff said.....he will never top MJ....he has to do something like he just did, several more times for the comparison to start to make sense...let's not forget the first half of this series....where was he?...he got his numbers, so you guys would say he was ok...when there was an obvious difference in his play...point blank layups...and let's not forget...he was the biggest player on the floor the majority of the series...he should dominate!! It took 13 years to do something MJ worthy, and everyone knows it...Back to Kawhi...look at his number comparatively the last what...4 games was it...he outplayed him when it matters...something James fans don't get....when and where mean everything...Quotatious has the reg season meaning as much as playoffs....lol...how about preseason??lol The playoffs is where legacies are made, and they are decided by who wins the most, and comes thru when it matters the most...just the way it is...Congrats guys, you're guy finally did something to be proud of...but let's not act like the Green suspension didn't play a part...the whole series turned on that...and this James beat a 73 win team thing...great job, but it's not like he was the 73 win team, lol...You guys treat it the same as winning that many....He got the upset...MJ was on the other side, talk about pressure...

So you think Wilt is the best, right? That's what you're saying, and it's fair. But that means he's better than MJ, right? "Should've lost all 4". But "didn't". So that goes out the window. James is the only one that misses layups? MJ made every one, right? MJ's career FG%- 49.7%. LBJ's- 49.8%. So tell me again how LBJ misses so many shots! Turnovers? MJ averaged 2.38 per 82 games. LBJ- 3.11. He turned the ball over a WHOPPING .73 times more than MJ! How careless of him!! BUUUUUT, Lebron averages 6.9 assists to MJ's 5.3. So even if that extra .73 turnover translated into a 3 and Lebron's 1.6 only translated into 2 pt buckets, LBJ still has the edge by 1 point per game!!! The truth hurts, huh? When and where mean everything? How about down 3-1 to the team that won the most games in history without HCA. How about scoring 41 twice in a row in elimination games and putting up a triple double in game 7 on the road? I'd say the "when and where" don't get any better than that. Oh, and Lebron has NEVER had a supporting cast anywhere NEAR the ones MJ had. Pippen, Ho Grant, Cartwright, Paxson/Craig Hodges. Then, Kucoc, Rodman, Longley, Kerr, Harper. Hell, put that around Lebron these days, and he wins 6 in a row! BTW, has MJ ever lead all players in a series, let alone a finals, in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals? Against a team that won more games than MJ's very own Bulls??? LBJ just did that!

I personally have MJ as the best ever, and I don't think Lebron is yet above KAJ, Russell, or Shaq. However, the reasons you are using are clearly nothing more than your MJ bias and/or hatred for Lebron. The man just did something historic. Sorry if your feelings are hurt because of it. But it happened. And it validated Lebron's legacy.

Just using the eye test...something no one on here does...I used Wilt as a reference for best if we go by numbers...just making an example...I watched MJ...Don't know how anyone that did, could think James is even close... I still have Duncan and others over James...And again you go with the numbers to end....

Man, keep trying. Everyone already knows your eye test is blind with hate on LeBron. If you had any substance, you'd use it. Many posters here saw MJ, Magic, Hakeem, etc. Some even saw Wilt and Russell (those I didn't).

Even after recoverging from a 3-1 deficit against a 73 wins team you don't give the dude any credit, even with game 5 and 6 being historical games and 2 of the 3 highest game scores achieved in the NBA finals since 84 (since there is the stat).

I can say I saw Karl Malone and he was better than Jordan. Without any substance, it's just a statement that is worth nothing.

Hell, I can even say Steve Kerr was a better PG than Curry. I can say whatever I want, it doesn't make it true.

[Colbinii]

Just using the eye test...something no one on here does...I used Wilt as a reference for best if we go by numbers...just making an example...I watched MJ...Don't know how anyone that did, could think James is even close... I still have Duncan and others over James...And again you go with the numbers to end....

Good for you. A lot of people value how impactful a player is on the court based on both eyes and numbers.