Greatest Peak: Perimeter Defender of All Time?

[mischievous]

Definitely Pippen.

[homecourtloss]

If Jordan gets a mention LBJ needs some love. His consitency can be an issue but at his peak he is as good as anyone ever.

When ere are stats available no because a tracking,mite a disgrace thst he didn't even make second team all defense. This is from a Cavs message board:

ISO defense

LeBron: .59 points per possession (PPP), 93rd percentile
Draymond: .68, 85th percentile
Kawhi: .69 PPP, 83rd percentile

Pick and roll ball handler

Kawhi: .65 PPP, 90th percentile
LeBron: .66 PPP, 88th percentile
Draymond: .88, 27th percentile

Pick and roll roll man

Kawhi: .50 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .70 PPP, 84th percentile
Draymond: .77 PPP, 75th percentile

Post defense

Draymond: .65 PPP, 89th percentile
LeBron: .77 PPP, 73rd percentile
Kawhi: .77 PPP, 71st percentile (numbers are rounded so James might have been at .772 and Kawhi at .768 or something)

Spot up defense

LeBron: .80 PPP, 87th percentile
Kawhi: .88 PPP, 75th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 66th percentile

Off screens defense

Draymond: .45 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .74PPP, 85th percentile
Kawhi: 1.05 PPP, 31st percentile

Hand offs defense

LeBron: .49 97th percentile
Kawhi: .72 PPP, 78th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 43rd percentile

No data available for transition defense, defense on cuts, and defense on offensive rebound out backs. In his thirteenth season playing on a team that's otherwise not that good defensively, James quietly out together a great, great defensive season because he had to since his team really had maybe three other plus defenders. Unlike Kawhi and Draymond who were subpar in some categories, James was at worst in the 73rd percentile.

Green:

Overall: 39.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 45.5%, -6.1%
Threes: 29.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -5.1%
Twos: 42.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.2%, -6.3%
<6ft: 51.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.6%, -8.7%

Kawhi

Overall: 39.2 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.8%, -5.6%
Threes: 33.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.9, -1.2%
Twos: 41.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 48.8%, -7.2%
<6ft: 53.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.5%, -7.0%

LeBron:

Overall: 37.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.7%, -7.3%
Threes: 32.1 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -2.6%
Twos: 40.8 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.0%, -8.2%
<6ft: 48.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 59.9%, -11.3%

LeBron In the playoffs was ridiculous:

Overall: 31.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 45.9%, -14.0%
Threes: 24.1 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 36.7%, -12. 6%
Twos: 36.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 50.5%, -13.9%
<6ft: 37.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 61.3%, -23.5%

LeBron In the finals was utterly ridiculous:

Overall: 31.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -16.3%
Threes: 29.0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 39.6%, 10.6%
Twos: 33.3 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 53.6%, -20.3%
<6ft: 38.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 63.6%, -25.1%

[Ferulci]

Nope, not even close. Who was taking the toughest assignments from '90 on? If we had DRAPM stats from these seasons, you would see Pippen probably having the decisive edge aft '90.

I would put LeBron as the overall more impactful perimeter defender when considering team defense than Jordan as well.

Like when Jordan assignment were Magic during 91, Drexler in 92, Majerle/KJ in 93 ? Check your facts please.

And how Lebron was a more impactful perimeter defender than Jordan ? Geez...
To answer the topic, I feel like Payton peak was the highest I witnessed but Kawhi could get there.

[LakerLegend]

Lebron absolutely should not be in consideration.

It's easy to commit energy and effort to defense when your on super teams in a conference like the East and don't need to work as hard in all aspects of the game(easier scoring opportunities, being able to pick and choose your shots, weaker offenses your matched up against defensively etc.)

Even then his defensive impact isn't on par with guys like Pippen and Payton.

Where was that defense when Leonard and Igoudala were winning finals MVP's? When Dirk was tearing it up in the Finals? when Rashard and Hedo were bombing 3's in the 09 playoffs?

[homecourtloss]

Lebron absolutely should not be in consideration.

It's easy to commit energy and effort to defense when your on super teams in a conference like the East and don't need to work as hard in all aspects of the game(easier scoring opportunities, being able to pick and choose your shots, weaker offenses your matched up against defensively etc.)

Even then his defensive impact isn't on par with guys like Pippen and Payton.

The data posted above clearly shows that James held together an otherwise poor defensive team with his defense throughout the year and ramped it up in the playoffs. Your anecdotal take is notnsupported by facts.

Where was that defense when Leonard and Igoudala were winning finals MVP's? When Dirk was tearing it up in the Finals? when Rashard and Hedo were bombing 3's in the 09 playoffs?

Dirk didn't "tear up the finals." 41.6% on FG, 53.7% TS. LeBron actually shot 47.8% FG and had a54.1% TS. Iggy was intentionally left open as part of the defensive plan.

Payton's defensive impact isn't as great as James's. Look at the stats posted above. That was an all-time offensive team that LeBron helped hold down had a comparable defensive year compared to Kawhi's and Draymond's years, and these two are widely acknowledged as the games two best defenders.

[Fencer reregistered]

When a perimeter player is an offensive star, his defensive effort tends to fluctuate wildly. That's true for super-hyped guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron, but it's also true for the Paul Pierce class of player, and even down to guys who wrongly think they're that good (e.g. Rondo).

If you want truly consistent defensive effort, you generally need to look at lesser offensive players such as Artest or Cooper, or ones who are lesser yet, e.g. Tony Allen.

That said -- were there any exceptions to the rule? I want to say that Pippen and Payton were. And I haven't a clue about Moncrief, Havlicek, or various old-time PGs.

[Fencer reregistered]

By the way, while everybody remembers his shot over a shoved-away Byron Russell, what preceded it was Jordan's steal of a ball Malone really seemed to have firmly in his hands.

[penbeast0]

When a perimeter player is an offensive star, his defensive effort tends to fluctuate wildly. That's true for super-hyped guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron, but it's also true for the Paul Pierce class of player, and even down to guys who wrongly think they're that good (e.g. Rondo).

If you want truly consistent defensive effort, you generally need to look at lesser offensive players such as Artest or Cooper, or ones who are lesser yet, e.g. Tony Allen.

That said -- were there any exceptions to the rule? I want to say that Pippen and Payton were. And I haven't a clue about Moncrief, Havlicek, or various old-time PGs.

I would say yes to both Moncrief and Havlicek. Although Moncrief was the primary scorer on his team at times, during his prime he was always right in the opponents jersey. Havlicek also, while I was never as impressed with his defense as his rep suggested, had that ridiculous motor and didn't tend to take defensive possessions off as so many great offensive players did. One reason I didn't hate Jordan is because he brought back the ideal of the 2 way perimeter star who was great on offense and defense after a decade of George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird.

In terms of old time PGs, Oscar got some good quotes from coaches about his defense but seemed to coast on that end to me though that could be because he was so expressionless; he was stronger than almost anyone he faced so he could bully them physically at times. West was more of a gambler with quick hands and feet and higher energy on the defensive end; he generated a lot of fast breaks off created turnovers. Frazier would seem to coast then suddenly explode defensively, generating 3 or 4 steals or shutdowns in short succession leaving the opponents calling time outs to try to figure out what went wrong.

[shukle]

Lebron absolutely should not be in consideration.

It's easy to commit energy and effort to defense when your on super teams in a conference like the East and don't need to work as hard in all aspects of the game(easier scoring opportunities, being able to pick and choose your shots, weaker offenses your matched up against defensively etc.)

Even then his defensive impact isn't on par with guys like Pippen and Payton.

Where was that defense when Leonard and Igoudala were winning finals MVP's? When Dirk was tearing it up in the Finals? when Rashard and Hedo were bombing 3's in the 09 playoffs?

Lol! Dude come one... LeBron has been the underdog in the finals more often than not. Iguodala and Leonard getting finals MVP was basicly the : LeBron should have this award, but he lost, so we'll give it to the guy who had to guard him.

LeBron just shut down one of the greatest offensive team of all time. Keep in mind he did this with a below average defensive team. His best team mates (defensively) were JR Smith and Tristan Thompson (the guy who said he gets a block once in a blue moon). And don't get me started on those pre decision Cavs team. They were horrible, if not for LeBron's awesomeness...

Get the hater glass off. LeBron is definitely top 5 perimeter defender of all time, and arguably top 3.

[Fencer reregistered]

When a perimeter player is an offensive star, his defensive effort tends to fluctuate wildly. That's true for super-hyped guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron, but it's also true for the Paul Pierce class of player, and even down to guys who wrongly think they're that good (e.g. Rondo).

If you want truly consistent defensive effort, you generally need to look at lesser offensive players such as Artest or Cooper, or ones who are lesser yet, e.g. Tony Allen.

That said -- were there any exceptions to the rule? I want to say that Pippen and Payton were. And I haven't a clue about Moncrief, Havlicek, or various old-time PGs.

I would say yes to both Moncrief and Havlicek. Although Moncrief was the primary scorer on his team at times, during his prime he was always right in the opponents jersey. Havlicek also, while I was never as impressed with his defense as his rep suggested, had that ridiculous motor and didn't tend to take defensive possessions off as so many great offensive players did. One reason I didn't hate Jordan is because he brought back the ideal of the 2 way perimeter star who was great on offense and defense after a decade of George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird.

In terms of old time PGs, Oscar got some good quotes from coaches about his defense but seemed to coast on that end to me though that could be because he was so expressionless; he was stronger than almost anyone he faced so he could bully them physically at times. West was more of a gambler with quick hands and feet and higher energy on the defensive end; he generated a lot of fast breaks off created turnovers. Frazier would seem to coast then suddenly explode defensively, generating 3 or 4 steals or shutdowns in short succession leaving the opponents calling time outs to try to figure out what went wrong.

Thanks!

I'd like to point out, in Bird's defense -- as it were -- that he made some All-NBA defensive teams early in his career, and had a famous steal later on.

But on the whole, I'd say that McHale gave consistent effort on defense, from banging in the post to closing out at the 3-pt line, while Bird gave consistent effort on offense and on the defensive boards.

[Hornet Mania]

I voted Pippen but Michael Cooper absolutely deserves to be in this poll. He was just as good as a lot of those guys, but overlooked in his own time because he was surrounded by better players and forgotten now because so much time has passed.