How far is LeBron from... Kareem?

[wallsfamily]

Do you factor in , him playing in the Eastern conference also , mever getting pasted a prime Celtic team.Finally beat them when he joined up with wade and bosh .

Of course you factor it in. But his Cavs teams simply weren't as good as those Celtics teams. Why would I use it as a mark against him that with basically no support whatsoever, he couldn't beat a deep and elite rival? That's not logical.

I think people under-estimate just how awful LeBron's supporting cast was in Cleveland before he left. In 2009-2010 the Cavs won 61 games and lost to the Celtics in the playoffs. LeBron left. Virtually the same Cavs roster, minus LeBron, returned the next season and set the NBA record for most consecutive losses to open the season, and finished with 19 wins. Why would I discredit LeBron for not elevating that team over a team with Rondo, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen? That wouldn't be logical.

If anything the win disparity caused by LeBron's absence is a strong argument in favor of ranking him near the top all time.

By way of comparison, when Michael Jordan retired the first time it was following a 57 win season. The next year without him, the Bulls won 55 games. (Its an illustration, MJ is GOAT.)

As far as joining up with Wade and Bosh, yes it certainly provided him with the best supporting cast he'd ever had (or has had since), but history has shown that this was not the superteam it was predicted to be. It was still very much a LeBron driven team. He was still the driving force and clear best player. Without him, even that Heat team would have been unremarkable.

Furthering Duck's point Lebron left the Heat Lottery, left Cavs four straight lotteries and come back to the Cavs finals two years.

[dautjazz]

LeBron is already the second greatest of all time and will retire that way.

What puts him over Kareen?

Kareem | Lebron
Titles: 6 | 3
NBA Finals: 10 | 7
MVPs: 6 | 4
Finals MVPs: 2 | 3
First All-NBA Team : 10 | 10
First All-Defense Team: 5 | 5
All-Star Games: 19 | 12

Other than Finals MVPs, Kareem has an edge or equal to Lebron. Lebron isn't far from Kareem, but I couldn't place him over Kareem right now.

This is exactly why you can't just look at those stats without context. Era, teammates, all come into the equation

Kareem was an absolute beast, dominated the 70's, held his own against Wilt, was still a great player in the early-mid 80s. Kareem has some of the best longevity ever. I didn't just note team success, I noted individual accolades. Mind you, All-NBA and All-Defense are harder for a center since there is only spot as opposed to two for forwards.

[mischievous]

He's in his mental prime right now IMO and still has a lot of good years left. Doing what he did last year against one of the best teams of all time undoubtedly gives you a sense of confidence that makes you unstoppable. Especially when you're LeBron James. Put it this way. You can put any team in front of him right now and he feels he can beat them. KD on the warriors is no exception. This is LeBron's league and he knows he can win at will. I see 3+ more championships from him. He's only 31 and being compared to a couple of the greatest of all time. This man is something special.

I'm sorry but you think Lebron wins 3 more championships?

It's hard enough to win a title at all, but assuming 3 more for him at this stage in his career seems like a stretch.

[Jakay]

Part of Kareem's legacy is the longevity, and Jordan was a scoring machine. Can't really place LeBron in that parthenon until his career winds down.

I mean, obviously, but still.

[Colbinii]

It is close, and it comes down to how you value accolades, team success, prime, and impact. I think it is very hard to make a case that LeBron is currently ranked ahead of Kareem, but I think it is even harder to have LeBron "not close" to Kareem.

[dautjazz]

LeBron is already the second greatest of all time and will retire that way.

What puts him over Kareen?

Kareem | Lebron
Titles: 6 | 3
NBA Finals: 10 | 7
MVPs: 6 | 4
Finals MVPs: 2 | 3
First All-NBA Team : 10 | 10
First All-Defense Team: 5 | 5
All-Star Games: 19 | 12

Other than Finals MVPs, Kareem has an edge or equal to Lebron. Lebron isn't far from Kareem, but I couldn't place him over Kareem right now.

How are you going to use a team accomplishment like number of titles, nba final appearances to prop up kareem and then...

Duncan has 2 more titles, but he played 6 more seasons, and was gift wrapped David Robinson and Greg Popovich from day one vs Lebron who was drafted by a 17 win team.

... dismiss Duncan's achievements because he came into a team setting that set him up for success?

I don't disagree with what you said but it just seems like the logic doesn't necessarily add up.

I'm talking about the start of their career, Kareem started with a franchise that just came off their inaugural season and won 27 games, and the team improved to 56 wins with his addition. 28.8ppg 14.5rpg 4.1apg (who knows how many blocks/steals) will do that for you. Kareem was traded to a **** Lakers team (30 wins), and made them win 10 more games the next season, then 13 more wins the next season. Magic came years later with a trade that the Jazz made a few years prior. Was Kareem lucky to get Magic down the road, sure, but you can't dismiss the fact that teams improved by over 20 wins thanks to his addition. Duncan was drafted in 1997 and had the 1995 MVP on his team and the team was basically a 60 win team before Robinson's injury, and he came back strong.

[druggas]

LeBorn needs more help again and again and again.

This would have been cute a few years ago. But he just put together back-to-back historically incredible finals performances against one of the greatest teams ever assembled.

Might as well be making "and whats the deal with airline food?" jokes.

You're right, it should have read, "Leborn needs more excuses again and again".

[Ballerhogger]

Do you factor in , him playing in the Eastern conference also , mever getting pasted a prime Celtic team.Finally beat them when he joined up with wade and bosh .

Of course you factor it in. But his Cavs teams simply weren't as good as those Celtics teams. Why would I use it as a mark against him that with basically no support whatsoever, he couldn't beat a deep and elite rival? That's not logical.

I think people under-estimate just how awful LeBron's supporting cast was in Cleveland before he left. In 2009-2010 the Cavs won 61 games and lost to the Celtics in the playoffs. LeBron left. Virtually the same Cavs roster, minus LeBron, returned the next season and set the NBA record for most consecutive losses to open the season, and finished with 19 wins. Why would I discredit LeBron for not elevating that team over a team with Rondo, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen? That wouldn't be logical.

If anything the win disparity caused by LeBron's absence is a strong argument in favor of ranking him near the top all time.

By way of comparison, when Michael Jordan retired the first time it was following a 57 win season. The next year without him, the Bulls won 55 games. (Its an illustration, MJ is GOAT.)

As far as joining up with Wade and Bosh, yes it certainly provided him with the best supporting cast he'd ever had (or has had since), but history has shown that this was not the superteam it was predicted to be. It was still very much a LeBron driven team. He was still the driving force and clear best player. Without him, even that Heat team would have been unremarkable.

If you watched his last game as cav against a prime C's team you would see how bad he left that team and series. He also played a pretty average Pacers team in the ECF as well. He has never really beat a formidable ECF team besides the pistons . He has had the most easiest road to finals in NBA history .

[RCM88x]

Do you factor in , him playing in the Eastern conference also , mever getting pasted a prime Celtic team.Finally beat them when he joined up with wade and bosh .

Of course you factor it in. But his Cavs teams simply weren't as good as those Celtics teams. Why would I use it as a mark against him that with basically no support whatsoever, he couldn't beat a deep and elite rival? That's not logical.

I think people under-estimate just how awful LeBron's supporting cast was in Cleveland before he left. In 2009-2010 the Cavs won 61 games and lost to the Celtics in the playoffs. LeBron left. Virtually the same Cavs roster, minus LeBron, returned the next season and set the NBA record for most consecutive losses to open the season, and finished with 19 wins. Why would I discredit LeBron for not elevating that team over a team with Rondo, Garnett, Pierce, and Allen? That wouldn't be logical.

If anything the win disparity caused by LeBron's absence is a strong argument in favor of ranking him near the top all time.

By way of comparison, when Michael Jordan retired the first time it was following a 57 win season. The next year without him, the Bulls won 55 games. (Its an illustration, MJ is GOAT.)

As far as joining up with Wade and Bosh, yes it certainly provided him with the best supporting cast he'd ever had (or has had since), but history has shown that this was not the superteam it was predicted to be. It was still very much a LeBron driven team. He was still the driving force and clear best player. Without him, even that Heat team would have been unremarkable.

If you watched his last game as cav against a prime C's team you would see how bad he left that team and series. He also played a pretty average Pacers team in the ECF as well. He has never really beat a formidable ECF team besides the pistons . He has had the most easiest road to finals in NBA history .

Yea, putting up 27/19/10 is really leaving the team in a bad way... Not to mention he held Pierce to 13pts on 4/13 shooting.

[trex_8063]

Without superteaming Lbj is zero tituli ( ringless like a Karl Malone).

So is Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem, Wilt.........

Also:
viewtopic.php?p=48128783#p48128783

[Colbinii]

LeBorn needs more help again and again and again.

I am pretty sure Magic and Pippen provided a lot more help than Dwyane Wade and Kyrie Irving.

[druggas]

LeBorn needs more help again and again and again.

I am pretty sure Magic and Pippen provided a lot more help than Dwyane Wade and Kyrie Irving.

My point exactly. You have to downgrade LeBorn's teammates to try and make him look better.

[Samurai]

If you watched his last game as cav against a prime C's team you would see how bad he left that team and series. He also played a pretty average Pacers team in the ECF as well. He has never really beat a formidable ECF team besides the pistons . He has had the most easiest road to finals in NBA history .

I do not think the underlined sentence is anywhere close to being true. The smaller league during the 60's often meant the Celtics only had to win one one series to go to the Finals. In 63, they only had to beat a Royals team with a .525 winning percentage and 1.24 SRS to make it to the Finals. In 65, they just had to beat a 76er team with a .500 winning percentage and a -0.13 SRS and they were in the Finals. That seems easier, certainly much shorter, than the road LeBron had/has to travel.

[BasketballFan7]

What he will need overall is another mvp, another back to back championships. If we take into accountant competition level as well hes still a good ways off. Given the value of the center position in kareems time vs now its going long road for Lebron.. If he can accomplish all this , then it will be very debatably . Right now it isn't.

Kareem's prime came during the 1970s (lasted until about 1980), ie the weakest decade in NBA history. the majority of his accolades (all of his MVPs and nearly all of his first team NBA/defense awards) came before 1981. And he managed to miss the playoffs twice during the midst of his peak level of play (in 1975, when he played over 60 games, and 1976, when he played the entire season).

LeBron would never hear the end of such things. Kareem's era was moreso the 70s than the 80s, and the teams of the 1970s were unquestionably below par due to various factors (ABA, expansion, drugs).

[Colbinii]

LeBorn needs more help again and again and again.

I am pretty sure Magic and Pippen provided a lot more help than Dwyane Wade and Kyrie Irving.

My point exactly. You have to downgrade LeBorn's teammates to try and make him look better.

What? I am not trying to make LeBron look any better.
Your post of "LeBron needs more help again and again and again" is completely false with no substantial information to back it up. I suppose you are going to twist my words with this post again.

[JordansBulls]

He's on the same level as Kareem IMO. In terms of impact and competition he's right there despite having slightly less team accomplishments.

Lebron's without question the second best perimeter player in my opinion. He passed Magic in my eyes after this season and playoff run.

Another title and FMVP and he's without question number 2 for me.

If Lebron dethrones a 73 win team, and then does it again after they got Durant, he will be in conversations for GOAT for sure. I do expect Cleveland to beat GS again since their weakness is even a bigger weakness now (interior defense), but I'm not going to lie, I will have a hard time denying Lebron the crown if he beats two of the greatest teams ever.

He can't be worried about Golden State anymore. He needs to worry about the Bulls for this season. Going against the guy in Wade who plays him to a standstill and then the guy in Jimmy who holds him down better than anyone else in the league.

[DuckIII]

LeBorn needs more help again and again and again.

This would have been cute a few years ago. But he just put together back-to-back historically incredible finals performances against one of the greatest teams ever assembled.

Might as well be making "and whats the deal with airline food?" jokes.

You're right, it should have read, "Leborn needs more excuses again and again".

Even worse. You aren't good at this. Got any fresh material about how bad Asian drivers are?

[DuckIII]

He's on the same level as Kareem IMO. In terms of impact and competition he's right there despite having slightly less team accomplishments.

Lebron's without question the second best perimeter player in my opinion. He passed Magic in my eyes after this season and playoff run.

Another title and FMVP and he's without question number 2 for me.

If Lebron dethrones a 73 win team, and then does it again after they got Durant, he will be in conversations for GOAT for sure. I do expect Cleveland to beat GS again since their weakness is even a bigger weakness now (interior defense), but I'm not going to lie, I will have a hard time denying Lebron the crown if he beats two of the greatest teams ever.

He can't be worried about Golden State anymore. He needs to worry about the Bulls for this season. Going against the guy in Wade who plays him to a standstill and then the guy in Jimmy who holds him down better than anyone else in the league.

Note: This guy speaks for only 1 Bulls fan.

[Colbinii]

If Lebron dethrones a 73 win team, and then does it again after they got Durant, he will be in conversations for GOAT for sure. I do expect Cleveland to beat GS again since their weakness is even a bigger weakness now (interior defense), but I'm not going to lie, I will have a hard time denying Lebron the crown if he beats two of the greatest teams ever.

He can't be worried about Golden State anymore. He needs to worry about the Bulls for this season. Going against the guy in Wade who plays him to a standstill and then the guy in Jimmy who holds him down better than anyone else in the league.

Note: This guy speaks for only 1 Bulls fan.

I lump you all together, with JordansBulls as the ring leader.

[homecourtloss]

Did this thread start on GB? There's no way 3/4ths of these posts are made on the PC board. One of the posters says outright that he can't be bothered to look up stats but just assumes Bird is better and more clutch than LeBron