Tim Duncan-closer to Kareem or KG on your ATG List?

[Matt15]

Do you have Duncan closer to Kareem or KG on your ATG list?

[Colbinii]

He is closer to Kareem in terms of what # they are, but he is closer to KG if I gave every player a numerical ranking like 2K.

[Statlanta]

Kareem, as both are the longevity GOATs and I am not as high on KG even if he retires

[Gus Fring]

Definetly Kareem. I have Kareem squarely at 2 on my list and Duncan anywhere between 3 and 6 while KG for me is slightly outside the top 12.


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[Texas Chuck]

Duncan and Kareem are battling for number 3. KG is around 12. Pretty big gap really.

[Hawk]

Kareem #2
Duncan #7
KG #10

[eminence]

A bit closer to KG for me. Kareem is my GOAT, and Duncan/KG are in the next tier with Jordan and Dirk.

[90sgoat]

I have Duncan 5-7 and KG somewhere around top 20-25

[mischievous]

A bit closer to KG for me. Kareem is my GOAT, and Duncan/KG are in the next tier with Jordan and Dirk.

Did you just put Dirk and Mj in the same tier?

[eminence]

A bit closer to KG for me. Kareem is my GOAT, and Duncan/KG are in the next tier with Jordan and Dirk.

Did you just put Dirk and Mj in the same tier?

That I did.

(Still working my way back, so maybe one or more of the big 4 from the 60's could wind up there as well).

[Ballerhogger]

More closer kareem . KG is pretty far away on ATG list compared with these two.

[Hawk Eye]

Yeah I have Duncan a lot closer to Kareem than KG. Garnett is outside of my top 10 but firmly in my top 15. Duncan is outside of my top 5 but only by a hair--probably around #6 or #7.

[NBAMythbuster]

Definitely Kareem. Duncan is clearly in the top 5, while KG is bottom of the top 10 at best.

[Quotatious]

Honestly, the only thing that separates Duncan from Garnett is that TD had more favorable circumstances, worked with far better management when both guys were in their primes. KG was a slightly better RS performer, but he rarely had teams as good as TD had. That also explains some of that perceived superiority of TD over KG in the playoffs.

I think Garnett is every bit as good as Duncan if they have equal supporting casts.

[NBAMythbuster]

Honestly, the only thing that separates Duncan from Garnett is that TD had more favorable circumstances, worked with far better management when both guys were in the primes. KG was a slightly better RS performer, but he rarely had teams as good as TD had. That also explains some of that perceived superiority of TD over KG in the playoffs.

I think Garnett is every bit as good as Duncan if they have equal supporting casts.

KG sometimes did have equal or better support casts, and did worse. This argument does not fly at all, even though on balance TD's circumstances were better. Duncan also has more longevity, becoming a better player soon and lasting longer, while also providing an inside out presence that KG did not provide.

[NO-KG-AI]

Tim Duncan and KG are way more similar in terms of production. Kareem clearly above both really.

Tim Duncan could win a title with complete scrubs, except when he didn't. Or something.

[mischievous]

Honestly, the only thing that separates Duncan from Garnett is that TD had more favorable circumstances, worked with far better management when both guys were in the primes. KG was a slightly better RS performer, but he rarely had teams as good as TD had. That also explains some of that perceived superiority of TD over KG in the playoffs.

I think Garnett is every bit as good as Duncan if they have equal supporting casts.

Does it not matter that Duncan had an easier time sustaining or increasing his offensive production in the postseason, than Kg? I think that matters when they were comparable at defense.

[Quotatious]

KG sometimes did have equal or better support casts, and did worse. This argument does not fly at all, even though on balance TD's circumstances were better.

When both guys were in their primes, very rarely did that happen. Basically just in 2003-04 season, and guess what, KG's team was very successful that season, nobody will ever know what happens if Cassell stays healthy. It's not hard to believe they could've won the title with healthy Sam (they could just as easily still lose to the Lakers in WCF or to the Pistons in the finals, but with healthy Cassell, every scenario I mentioned is equally likely, IMO).

When KG had arguably better supporting casts was in Boston, but both KG and TD were 30+ year old and slightly past their primes by that time.

Wolves basically sabotaged KG's future with that Joe Smith salary cap scandal, getting multiple first round picks taken away from them. That could make a huge difference in terms of the way KG's career looks like today. Meanwhile, San Antonio was pretty much the standard of excellence in terms of NBA management and smart decision making during Duncan's career.

Duncan also has more longevity, becoming a better player soon and lasting longer, while also providing an inside out presence that KG did not provide.

The thing is, Duncan's outside presence was mediocre compared to Garnett's. It can certainly be argued that Garnett's inside presence was mediocre compared to Duncan's, but in terms of skill-set, there are clearly some things KG did better (ball-handling, playmaking, long-range shooting, free throw shooting, pick & roll defense, defensive versatility in terms of 1 on 1 defense, quickness), and some thing TD did better (low post scoring, offensive rebounding, shot-blocking, rim protection, strength, 1 on 1 defense in the post against bigs). In general, KG was a better RS performer (much bigger sample size, therefore perhaps more indicative of a consistent level of a player, but much less important games), TD better playoff performer (much smaller sample size, therefore more susceptible to outlier-ish/flukey/out-of-character, use whatever word you want to describe it, results, but much more important games).

There are good arguments in favor of both players.

As far as longevity, they were very close between 1999-00 and 2012-13 seasons. I would give the edge to Duncan in 1997-98 and 1998-99 seasons, but Garnett was already very good, too. I would add 1996-97 as a very good season for KG, when Duncan was still at Wake Forest, but Duncan was far better in 2014-16 (three seasons, especially 2014 and 2015 are relevant because he was still an all-star caliber player). So overall, Duncan does have better longevity, but it's not a big gap. In the grand scheme of things, it's not enough to earn TD a large advantage. Also, not to take anything away from Duncan's longevity, but Pop is a master of putting his stars on minutes restriction and prolonging their careers as a result.

Anyway, I'm a fan of both players and I would give TD the edge, but it is pretty close, far closer than the 5 > 1 advantage in terms of rings might suggest.

[Quotatious]

Does it not matter that Duncan had an easier time sustaining or increasing his offensive production in the postseason, than Kg? I think that matters when they were comparable at defense.

Sure, it does matter, but it's a bit more complex than that.

First of all, we might want to look at their career BPM in regular season and playoffs, as it tells an interesting story.

Regular season:

Duncan: +5.5 (+1.5 OBPM, +4.0 DBPM)
Garnett: +5.4 (+2.1 OBPM, +3.3 DBPM)

Playoffs:

Duncan: +5.9 (+2.1 OBPM, +3.8 DBPM)
Garnett: +4.6 (+0.5 OBPM, 4.1 DBPM)

I don't even particularly care who has the higher rating (because I'm not a big fan of BPM in general), but the tendencies are interesting - offensively, Duncan improved in the playoffs, but defensively, he declined in the playoffs, and Garnett declined on offense, but improved on defense, so opposite tendencies. Plus, TD played a lot more playoff games in his absolute prime, while KG played vast majority of his postseason games in Boston, past his absolute prime. Minnesota KG was a +5.6 BPM guy, marginally lower than Duncan's career.

So, I think it's a bit more complicated, because Garnett seemed to be better than Duncan on defense in the playoffs, or at least I think people ignore the improvement that KG made on defense in the playoffs, but they always see his drop-off in terms of scoring efficiency.

[feyki]

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