2016/17 Player of the Year discussion thread

[bwgood77]

No, you've said nothing factual, that's still the issue. People here have now asked for something beyond just unsubstantiated talking. It seems like they all want to here this which you speak of, but you won't give us whatever knowledge you have that we're all lacking.

So you're gonna ignore it. K.

Moving on.

I didn't ignore anything.

I didn't see you answer anyone who asked you. Please do.

It's best to both move on.

[Doctor MJ]

When most of the roster can't make good decisions at an nba level and needs a superstar's guidance, it's pretty ridiculous to blame the superstar for providing that guidance. Sure you can argue that this time of play doesn't scale well, but who cares? Westbrook is playing the way he is because the situation demands it, it's only right to judge him based on how well he's playing the cards given him.

And if the player creates the situation that needs him so but leaves his team mired in medioI'm not saying you should think that if Westbrook, but I think we all should be looking along this axis as a matter of course.


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[Texas Chuck]

When most of the roster can't make good decisions at an nba level and needs a superstar's guidance, it's pretty ridiculous to blame the superstar for providing that guidance. Sure you can argue that this time of play doesn't scale well, but who cares? Westbrook is playing the way he is because the situation demands it, it's only right to judge him based on how well he's playing the cards given him.

And if the player creates the situation that needs him so but leaves his team mired in medioI'm not saying you should think that if Westbrook, but I think we all should be looking along this axis as a matter of course.


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I think almost no player should be held accountable for the roster composition or coaching. And certainly not Westbrook who didn't ask for the team to built around him like this. Lebron is maybe the only current player one could apply this standard to since he played such a major role in Miami and since his return to Cleveland in how the roster is put together.

Smart organizations manage to build intelligently around their stars. We saw this in Dallas post-2004 where they made building around Dirk priority. We saw the opposite in Minnesota with KG. The Spurs obviously are the gold standard for building a team. I'd have OKC with Sam Presti one of the absolute worst among contenders. He nailed the draft to a degree we will never see again getting Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka in such a short amount of time. And he absolutely wet the bet time and again in surrounding those players with the right pieces.

He started by wanting to have his cake and eat it too. He fell in love with his ability to draft so he wouldn't deal picks/prospects to address real holes the roster had. This pattern repeated itself for years. Teams with a core strong enough to compete for titles was left with real liabilities because he was sure all his picks would pan out and he assumed he would have his superstars forever. The the Durant FA clock was ticking down and he panicked and made a series of really questionable deals trying to address needs, but again he insisted on targeting young controllable players rather than bringing in the kind of vet role players they desperately needed.

I feel strongly this is not a criticism that should even be mentioned in terms of Westbrook. But should fall at the feet of Presti. Even to the point of hiring Donovan instead of a more proven NBA coach.

[Doctor MJ]

When most of the roster can't make good decisions at an nba level and needs a superstar's guidance, it's pretty ridiculous to blame the superstar for providing that guidance. Sure you can argue that this time of play doesn't scale well, but who cares? Westbrook is playing the way he is because the situation demands it, it's only right to judge him based on how well he's playing the cards given him.

And if the player creates the situation that needs him so but leaves his team mired in medioI'm not saying you should think that if Westbrook, but I think we all should be looking along this axis as a matter of course.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I think almost no player should be held accountable for the roster composition or coaching. And certainly not Westbrook who didn't ask for the team to built around him like this. Lebron is maybe the only current player one could apply this standard to since he played such a major role in Miami and since his return to Cleveland in how the roster is put together.

Smart organizations manage to build intelligently around their stars. We saw this in Dallas post-2004 where they made building around Dirk priority. We saw the opposite in Minnesota with KG. The Spurs obviously are the gold standard for building a team. I'd have OKC with Sam Presti one of the absolute worst among contenders. He nailed the draft to a degree we will never see again getting Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka in such a short amount of time. And he absolutely wet the bet time and again in surrounding those players with the right pieces.

He started by wanting to have his cake and eat it too. He fell in love with his ability to draft so he wouldn't deal picks/prospects to address real holes the roster had. This pattern repeated itself for years. Teams with a core strong enough to compete for titles was left with real liabilities because he was sure all his picks would pan out and he assumed he would have his superstars forever. The the Durant FA clock was ticking down and he panicked and made a series of really questionable deals trying to address needs, but again he insisted on targeting young controllable players rather than bringing in the kind of vet role players they desperately needed.

I feel strongly this is not a criticism that should even be mentioned in terms of Westbrook. But should fall at the feet of Presti. Even to the point of hiring Donovan instead of a more proven NBA coach.

Well broadly the thing is that every single employee in existence gets judged by the effects he has beyond his primary function. This idea that we should separate a player entirely from the decisions he makes as a member of a franchise is thus based on a yearning for simplicity that just isn't real.

To me it really becomes an issue when we talk about a player doing things that make him more irreplaceable but hurt the organization - which again, if you've never worked with people who do this, you're quite fortunate. In the NBA, the guy I always think of is '10-11 Dwight.

In that year he was my MVP pick, and granted it was a weak year, but the thing that bothered me at the time, and bothers me more now, was the fact that Orlando was getting worse desperately trying to make trades to keep him happy. Among those moves was trading Gortat, which literally made Howard the only Howard-like guy on the roster. At the time I still sided with Howard in the MVP race because I felt that the moves made sense in theory even if Howard was perfectly reasonable, but what I feared was that he was driving the franchise to take hail mary moves desperately trying to get the team to a new level so that Howard would stay and stay happy.

And of course that's exactly what they were doing.
And of course we know Howard basically has tried to do this in LA and Houston.

He's someone who is easily convinced that he's not getting what he deserves, and this in general hurts him in every possible way...but for a brief window in Orlando, it made him the most irreplaceable player in the NBA. Knowing what we know now, does it really make sense to judge his '10-11 performance without factoring in the damage he was in the process of doing?

If you choose not to, that's fine. You're entitled to your perspective. But the effects in question are quite real, and quite frankly every top tier star in the league has the power to be like this to devastating effect, so to me you just don't get a real useful analysis by pretending it isn't a part of the basketball player.

I don't feel like talking about Westbrook specifically. I'm going to avoid that as much as possible because I really just don't like how people get with Westbrook. It's Kobe all over again and if I were wiser I wouldn't have put so much effort into talking about Kobe.

I do think though that coaching criticisms in OKC are past their use date. They've looked ugly out there to me for many years. It is what it is I don't expect it to change if they bring in a 3rd coach. Of course them seeming ugly to me doesn't necessarily matter, so we'll just see how they do with the Ws and the Ls going forward.

As for Presti and GMs, I tend to judge them based on whether it makes sense to fire them. I don't think it makes sense to fire Presti. I'd have done things differently with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden...but then again I probably wouldn't have nailed all 3 of those draft picks either.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't feel like talking about Westbrook specifically. I'm going to avoid that as much as possible because I really just don't like how people get with Westbrook. It's Kobe all over again and if I were wiser I wouldn't have put so much effort into talking about Kobe.


As for Presti and GMs, I tend to judge them based on whether it makes sense to fire them. I don't think it makes sense to fire Presti. I'd have done things differently with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden...but then again I probably wouldn't have nailed all 3 of those draft picks either.

Meh I don't think its right to hold what Howard did against Westbrook when we know those things to be true about him and we don't know anything of the sort in regards to Westbrook. In fact we tend to hear the opposite. I'm no Westbrook stan either so I'm not sure why you and I can't have a conversation here. Heck even if we were talking about Dirk I feel like I've earned some benefit of the doubt to not be dismissed just because some posters can't be objective about Kobe.

But whatever I guess. I'll honor it and drop the Westbrook portion here even tho you specifically brought the topic up and then responded directly to me. Obviously Presti's draft record bought him a ton of job security. I guess I just strongly disagree that we shouldn't criticism him for the specific flaws you seem to want to attribute to a specific player.


As to your point about how key employees impact an entire organization we don't disagree. I just don't agree with the implications you are making in this specific situation. Especially when I've yet to see any specifics from you that defend that position. Clearly Westbrook has some flaws and I'm open to those, but I don't blame him because the rest of the roster is so poorly assembled around him.

[clyde21]

While I think Presti definitely could've done a better job of of building around Westbrook, we need to acknowledge that Westbrook isn't the easiest superstar to build around, either.

[Prez]

While I think Presti definitely could've done a better job of of building around Westbrook, we need to acknowledge that Westbrook isn't the easiest superstar to build around, either.

PnR big
Shooters

Seems pretty easy to me.

[clyde21]

While I think Presti definitely could've done a better job of of building around Westbrook, we need to acknowledge that Westbrook isn't the easiest superstar to build around, either.

PnR big
Shooters

Seems pretty easy to me.

Championship!

[Prez]

While I think Presti definitely could've done a better job of of building around Westbrook, we need to acknowledge that Westbrook isn't the easiest superstar to build around, either.

PnR big
Shooters

Seems pretty easy to me.

Championship!

I mean you can be as sarcastic as you want but the reality is that's the general formula to build around Westbrook and it's really not that super difficult. What Houston has around Harden would work exceptionally well with Westbrook.

[RightToCensor]

This is only year 1 in the Westbrook era. Harden didn't get a team completely built around him until his fifth year in Houston. Be patient with Presti, Westbrook's not leaving and there's no rush to make the Finals.

[clyde21]

PnR big
Shooters

Seems pretty easy to me.

Championship!

I mean you can be as sarcastic as you want but the reality is that's the general formula to build around Westbrook and it's really not that super difficult. What Houston has around Harden would work exceptionally well with Westbrook.

It's extremely difficult to build around a ball-dominating, high volume, inefficient PG. "Just throw him a couple of shooters" isn't gonna cut it.

[Prez]

Championship!

I mean you can be as sarcastic as you want but the reality is that's the general formula to build around Westbrook and it's really not that super difficult. What Houston has around Harden would work exceptionally well with Westbrook.

It's extremely difficult to build around a ball-dominating, high volume, inefficient PG. "Just throw him a couple of shooters" isn't gonna cut it.

No, no it isn’t. First off, if 31 ppg on 55% TS and the best clutch net rating among any star is inefficient, then every player in the game should try to be inefficient. James Harden factually has more touches and the ball in his hands a longer time, while also averaging a higher TOV% than Westbrook, and yet no one calls him difficult to build around. Literally the only difference is that Harden has a **** load of shooters/firepower around him and a coach perfectly suited to build around his ball-dominant style, so people can’t push the “hard to build around him” nonsense.

[clyde21]

I mean you can be as sarcastic as you want but the reality is that's the general formula to build around Westbrook and it's really not that super difficult. What Houston has around Harden would work exceptionally well with Westbrook.

It's extremely difficult to build around a ball-dominating, high volume, inefficient PG. "Just throw him a couple of shooters" isn't gonna cut it.

No, no it isn’t. First off, if 31 ppg on 55% TS and the best clutch net rating among any star is inefficient, then every player in the game should try to be inefficient. James Harden factually has more touches and the ball in his hands a longer time, while also averaging a higher TOV% than Westbrook, and yet no one calls him difficult to build around. Literally the only difference is that Harden has a **** load of shooters/firepower around him and a coach perfectly suited to build around his ball-dominant style, so people can’t push the “hard to build around him” nonsense.

I guess time will tell brudda. We'll see what happens in the off-season with this team.

[eminence]

No, no it isn’t. First off, if 31 ppg on 55% TS and the best clutch net rating among any star is inefficient, then every player in the game should try to be inefficient. James Harden factually has more touches and the ball in his hands a longer time, while also averaging a higher TOV% than Westbrook, and yet no one calls him difficult to build around. Literally the only difference is that Harden has a **** load of shooters/firepower around him and a coach perfectly suited to build around his ball-dominant style, so people can’t push the “hard to build around him” nonsense.

I'd like to point out that this is because TOV% is kind of a junk statistic, not because Westbrook turns it over any significant amount less.

Agree with your larger point that building around Westbrook/Harden is fairly similar in theory.

[sp6r=underrated]

I hate the fact SF is building a stadium for the Warriors and hate that Oakland is now giving a bribe to the Warriors. These stadiums cannot be justified economically. They also cannot be justified as a public service. What a disgrace.

[bondom34]

Any thoughts on a full ROY ballot? I'm thinking Saric is 1, Embiid and Brogdon are 2/3 in some order. Don't know for sure after that.

[clyde21]

Any thoughts on a full ROY ballot? I'm thinking Saric is 1, Embiid and Brogdon are 2/3 in some order. Don't know for sure after that.

I can get with that.

I think it's gotta go to Dario at this point.

[Quotatious]

Any thoughts on a full ROY ballot? I'm thinking Saric is 1, Embiid and Brogdon are 2/3 in some order. Don't know for sure after that.

This is an extremely weak season when it comes to rookies. Honestly I haven't even paid attention to the ROY race this year. Just the fact that Embiid who's already missed more than half of the season, is being considered one of the top candidates, shows how bad it is.

I'm glad to see that Buddy Hield (my favorite player in this draft class, prior to the draft) is finally playing well offensively in Sacramento. His defense is terrible, and the turnovers are worrisome, but the way he's shooting the ball, is a really nice sign.

Kris Dunn looking like a bust is not a surprise to me. I thought he had some of the highest bust potential in this draft class.

Brogdon is ROY for me. Great shooter, nice playmaker. I hope that he and Middleton will be able to coexist successfully together, in a way that won't impede Brogdon's development (because he definitely seems to have all-star potential).

When was the last time a second round pick won ROY? I can't remember.

[eminence]

Brogdon is my pick for ROY at this point pretty easily. Embiid quite possibly holding on to #2 though.

[Prez]

Saric is a pretty reasonable pick for ROY, but man, it really sucks that Brogdon's likely gonna miss out on it because he doesn't put up eye popping box score numbers. His impact has been unreal for a 2nd round rookie, and him being as good as he is has straight up saved the Bucks season. Seriously, with Middleton out so long and Delly proving to be crap without LeBron (fell out of the rotation even in Cleveland towards the end), if Brogdon doesn't perform like he does, we're talking a guard rotation worse than Brooklyn and the Bucks are picking top 5.