1st option on offense + elite defense

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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#21 » by pelifan » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:16 am

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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#22 » by inDe_eD » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:37 am

lorak wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I think a lot of people are seriously over looking the Pau Gasol and David Lee effect. I mean Jimmy Butler started playing better defense once Gasol left, and Butler is a 1st option.


Butler’s DRPM is basically the same as last year. His DFG is worse. Besides it’s not like Gasol was or is negative player on defense. He still is valuable on that end, just not as much as Duncan.

Last time I saw Leonard play he was straight up mugging the other team (I think Mavs?). It really just seems like the Spurs have worse defenders overall.


They do, but looks like main reason is that Kawhi plays worse on that end. Even with Duncan on the bench and Leonard on the floor they had much better defense last year than now. It’s really not the case here, that team around him is that bad, as basically every rotation player has better defensive on/off than Kawhi. So lack of Tim hurts Spurs as a whole, but if Leonard would have played on the level from ’16, they would be better on defense, but he can’t be as good on defense and at the same time carry so much offensive load.


So wait, Gasol is an average defender and Kawhi is declining? Man, you must watch a lot of Spurs games. /s

The spurs' super defense last year was predicated around Kawhi funneling the ballhandler into Duncan; that's been a total disaster with Pau though. Wait til Dedmon gets back, you'll see some elite defensive lineups with Leonard/Green/Dedmon.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#23 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:33 am

lorak wrote:They do, but looks like main reason is that Kawhi plays worse on that end. Even with Duncan on the bench and Leonard on the floor they had much better defense last year than now. It’s really not the case here, that team around him is that bad, as basically every rotation player has better defensive on/off than Kawhi. So lack of Tim hurts Spurs as a whole, but if Leonard would have played on the level from ’16, they would be better on defense, but he can’t be as good on defense and at the same time carry so much offensive load.


From what I've seen Gasol has been a negative on defense for years. Is there something that supports the notion that he is a positive defender?

I think Kawhi is still very good on defense, but it's clear that his defense alone is not going to anchor a team.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#24 » by bondom34 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:47 am

microfib4thewin wrote:
lorak wrote:They do, but looks like main reason is that Kawhi plays worse on that end. Even with Duncan on the bench and Leonard on the floor they had much better defense last year than now. It’s really not the case here, that team around him is that bad, as basically every rotation player has better defensive on/off than Kawhi. So lack of Tim hurts Spurs as a whole, but if Leonard would have played on the level from ’16, they would be better on defense, but he can’t be as good on defense and at the same time carry so much offensive load.


From what I've seen Gasol has been a negative on defense for years. Is there something that supports the notion that he is a positive defender?

I think Kawhi is still very good on defense, but it's clear that his defense alone is not going to anchor a team.

BPM and rim protection have him as excellent. Problem is he's terrible against the PnR and teams can kill him with it, and his RAPM is still a negative defensively. Kawhi's decline happening the same year when the Spurs lost Duncan and added 2 of the worst defensive bigs on the market seems like more than a coincidence to me.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#25 » by lorak » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:06 am

microfib4thewin wrote:
From what I've seen Gasol has been a negative on defense for years. Is there something that supports the notion that he is a positive defender?


His DRAPM was around 1 last season. Bulls also played a bit worse without him. He simply isn't defensive anchor as Duncan was, but he is not some Amare on defensive end.

inDe_eD wrote:
The spurs' super defense last year was predicated around Kawhi funneling the ballhandler into Duncan;


Almost everyone can "funnel" ballhandlerl into defensive anchor, so it wasn't really that much of Kawhi's defensive brilliance, but it shows how amazing was Tim even at the old age. It looks like Leonard never was defensively on the level of Pippen, Artest, Drymond or LeBron, he just was beneficjent of playing with Duncan.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#26 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:35 pm

lorak wrote:Almost everyone can "funnel" ballhandlerl into defensive anchor, so it wasn't really that much of Kawhi's defensive brilliance, but it shows how amazing was Tim even at the old age. It looks like Leonard never was defensively on the level of Pippen, Artest, Drymond or LeBron, he just was beneficjent of playing with Duncan.


I can accept Draymond and peak Lebron having higher defensive impact, but Pippen and Artest dominated during iso basketball and Pippen's era allowed handchecking. It's easier to have defensive impact when only one player needs to be shut down as opposed to the entire team.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#27 » by lorak » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:01 pm

microfib4thewin wrote: It's easier to have defensive impact when only one player needs to be shut down as opposed to the entire team.


True, but wasn't man to man defense Kawhi's main strength? Was he ever as good help/team defender as LeBron?
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#28 » by microfib4thewin » Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:42 pm

I would say his man defense is better than his help defense, but he's no slouch as a help defender either. I don't think he was ever as good as Lebron but comparable to Pippen and better than Artest.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#29 » by inDe_eD » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:53 pm

First question of the Dunc'd on Pod mailbag pod was about Kawhi's defense. Nate's answer: "He's fine, he plays with David Lee, Paul Gasol, Lamarcus Aldridge and Tony Parker". Also, Spurs are working in 7 new players this year, that's hard to do and maintain a high level of team defense.
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Re: 1st option on offense + elite defense 

Post#30 » by inDe_eD » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:17 pm

lorak wrote:
microfib4thewin wrote:
From what I've seen Gasol has been a negative on defense for years. Is there something that supports the notion that he is a positive defender?


His DRAPM was around 1 last season. Bulls also played a bit worse without him. He simply isn't defensive anchor as Duncan was, but he is not some Amare on defensive end.

inDe_eD wrote:
The spurs' super defense last year was predicated around Kawhi funneling the ballhandler into Duncan;


Almost everyone can "funnel" ballhandlerl into defensive anchor, so it wasn't really that much of Kawhi's defensive brilliance, but it shows how amazing was Tim even at the old age. It looks like Leonard never was defensively on the level of Pippen, Artest, Drymond or LeBron, he just was beneficjent of playing with Duncan.


I could be looking at the wrong year, but multi-year has Pau Gasol at -.5 DRAPM, and single year has him at .09...

Just watch some games. He's not a positive defender and absolutely compromises the team defense whenever he's on the court. I dare even say that Lee has been better than Gasol on defense.
“Let's say TPE is a big hole, Ryan Anderson is a "power plug Dick" ($21 million a year). All you have to do is use the Dick to plug in. Great trade and great deal! This is called "perfect fit" in the nba.”

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