Current John Wall vs Peak Kevin Love

EasternHeretic · Post #1 » by **EasternHeretic** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:48 am

Who's better?

Freighttrain · Post #2 » by **Freighttrain** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:02 am

I feel like wall is one of a very select few who can control the pace of the game, makes his teammates better, both of which aren't things I've ever seen Kevin love do. Love was a beast on the glass though. But he never got his team into the playoffs as "the star"

mihail_petkov · Post #3 » by **mihail_petkov** » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:30 am

2014 Kevin Love was top 3-5 player and was better than 2017 John Wall. It's not his fault that his team had so many injuries and played in the West. His team still won 40 games that year. If we compare their advanced numbers, it's not even close.

EasternHeretic · Post #4 » by **EasternHeretic** » Mon May 1, 2017 2:53 am

bump.

JordansBulls · Post #5 » by **JordansBulls** » Mon May 1, 2017 2:56 am

Love in Minny

ronnymac2 · Post #6 » by **ronnymac2** » Mon May 1, 2017 3:36 am

Wall. I'm not as high as others are on 2014 Kevin Love.

NormanDale · Post #7 » by **NormanDale** » Mon May 1, 2017 1:21 pm

mihail_petkov wrote:2014 Kevin Love was top 3-5 player and was better than 2017 John Wall. It's not his fault that his team had so many injuries and played in the West. His team still won 40 games that year. If we compare their advanced numbers, it's not even close.

Statistically, he was a top 5 player. Actually, he was not. Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Paul were all definitely better than him, as were (arguably) Blake, Lowry, and Dirk.

I'll take Wall.

Colbinii · Post #8 » by **Colbinii** » Mon May 1, 2017 1:41 pm

NormanDale wrote:
mihail_petkov wrote:2014 Kevin Love was top 3-5 player and was better than 2017 John Wall. It's not his fault that his team had so many injuries and played in the West. His team still won 40 games that year. If we compare their advanced numbers, it's not even close.

Statistically, he was a top 5 player. Actually, he was not. Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Paul were all definitely better than him, as were (arguably) Blake, Lowry, and Dirk.

I'll take Wall.

Love was a top 5 player impact wise as well.

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Post #9 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon May 1, 2017 1:57 pm

EasternHeretic wrote:Who's better?

I'd say Love.

I think Wall is great and the more impactful player now but Love at his best was amazing.

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Post #10 » by **Quotatious** » Mon May 1, 2017 2:50 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
EasternHeretic wrote:Who's better?

I'd say Love.

I think Wall is great and the more impactful player now but Love at his best was amazing.

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2014 Love will end up being one of those seasons that get totally lost in a shuffle in NBA history books, because he never put it together like that again, but he was a monster.

The only other player in NBA history who averaged at least 26/12/4 on 59% TS was Kareem in 1971-72 season. How about that.

There's also that misconception about 2014 Love, that he supposedly put up "empty stats", which couldn't be further from the truth. Wolves had a winning record when he played (39-38), and they were horrible when he didn't (not just in the 5 games he missed, but also when he was resting on the bench - he had +11.0 on/off court net rating, which is elite).

HeartBreakKid · Post #11 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon May 1, 2017 2:53 pm

Wall is showing great impact on a 2nd round playoff team, what exactly did Love to to supercede that?

Love is better in fantasy basketball sure, Wall's impact goes well beyond boxscore while Love's boxscore stat probably overrates him. Wall controls offense and is a good defender, two things that do not show up well in boxscores.

Ron Swanson · Post #12 » by **Ron Swanson** » Mon May 1, 2017 3:20 pm

Kevin Love was never a Top-5 player in the league. His 2014 season is exhibit A on what I'd use in the "Stats can be incredibly misleading" debate. I mean yeah, someone on those T-Wolves teams had to take all that usage and all those shots.

I don't fault him for putting up great numbers on a bad team, but it was a clear outlier season and my biggest criticism of him as a player has always been that his skill set (volume scoring stretch-4 and elite rebounder) never out-weighed his weaknesses (defensive turnstile, lack of post-game), and wasn't nearly as valuable to winning teams as the advanced numbers suggested he was. I remember people in 2014-15 trying to say he was a better version of Chris Bosh and I thought the exact opposite.

NormanDale · Post #13 » by **NormanDale** » Mon May 1, 2017 3:28 pm

Colbinii wrote:
NormanDale wrote:
mihail_petkov wrote:2014 Kevin Love was top 3-5 player and was better than 2017 John Wall. It's not his fault that his team had so many injuries and played in the West. His team still won 40 games that year. If we compare their advanced numbers, it's not even close.

Statistically, he was a top 5 player. Actually, he was not. Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Paul were all definitely better than him, as were (arguably) Blake, Lowry, and Dirk.

I'll take Wall.

Love was a top 5 player impact wise as well.

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app

Nah, I don't agree. The Warriors (correctly) refused to give up Klay Thompson for him. You don't do that if you truly believe Love is a Top-5 player.

Also, Top-5 players don't completely fall apart when they change situations or join up together. Look at Wade when LeBron joined him in 2011, or Durant and Curry this year.

The evidence over the last three years is heavily in favor of the theory (which was somewhat common at the time) that Love's stats were as much a product of his situation as of his ability.

He was a Top-10 or at worst a Top-15 player, but he wasn't a Top-5 player.

Scizzup · Post #14 » by **Scizzup** » Mon May 1, 2017 4:27 pm

NormanDale wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
NormanDale wrote:
Statistically, he was a top 5 player. Actually, he was not. Lebron, Durant, Curry, Harden, and Paul were all definitely better than him, as were (arguably) Blake, Lowry, and Dirk.

I'll take Wall.

Love was a top 5 player impact wise as well.

Sent from my SM-G920P using RealGM mobile app

Nah, I don't agree. The Warriors (correctly) refused to give up Klay Thompson for him. You don't do that if you truly believe Love is a Top-5 player.

Also, Top-5 players don't completely fall apart when they change situations or join up together. Look at Wade when LeBron joined him in 2011, or Durant and Curry this year.

The evidence over the last three years is heavily in favor of the theory (which was somewhat common at the time) that Love's stats were as much a product of his situation as of his ability.

He was a Top-10 or at worst a Top-15 player, but he wasn't a Top-5 player.

The trade they wanted was Klay and Draymond for Love. GSW wanted to give them Dray and Barnes instead because they preferred Klay shooting next to Curry. And no Curry wasn't better than Love in 2014. Also everyone thought it was a bad move not giving up Klay for Love at the time.

Post #15 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon May 1, 2017 5:13 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Kevin Love was never a Top-5 player in the league. His 2014 season is exhibit A on what I'd use in the "Stats can be incredibly misleading" debate. I mean yeah, someone on those T-Wolves teams had to take all that usage and all those shots.

I don't fault him for putting up great numbers on a bad team, but it was a clear outlier season and my biggest criticism of him as a player has always been that his skill set (volume scoring stretch-4 and elite rebounder) never out-weighed his weaknesses (defensive turnstile, lack of post-game), and wasn't nearly as valuable to winning teams as the advanced numbers suggested he was. I remember people in 2014-15 trying to say he was a better version of Chris Bosh and I thought the exact opposite.

It wasn't an outlier season though for Love. It was a natural progression. It got disrupted afterward because he switched team contexts.

Also as was mentioned by others, Love's impact was real. The team was much better when Love played.

ShotCreator · Post #16 » by **ShotCreator** » Mon May 1, 2017 5:21 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Wall is showing great impact on a 2nd round playoff team, what exactly did Love to to supercede that?

Love is better in fantasy basketball sure, Wall's impact goes well beyond boxscore while Love's boxscore stat probably overrates him. Wall controls offense and is a good defender, two things that do not show up well in boxscores.

I'm really not high on Wall's defense right now. This looks to be another round of him arguably being a liability in the pick and roll against the oppositions PG. Porter had no chance against IT's quickness to start, so later in the game continually got to his spots around the elbow against Wall. I don't really think Wall was impressive in any facet of defense except occasionally in transition, and it was largely the same against Schroder and Altanta.

Post #17 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon May 1, 2017 5:23 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:Wall is showing great impact on a 2nd round playoff team, what exactly did Love to to supercede that?

Love is better in fantasy basketball sure, Wall's impact goes well beyond boxscore while Love's boxscore stat probably overrates him. Wall controls offense and is a good defender, two things that do not show up well in boxscores.

I think there's a strong chance Wall has the better career because he is leading a team that will likely continue to have some level of playoff success, and Love won't. But I don't think it was Love's fault his team had such problems.

clyde21 · Post #18 » by **clyde21** » Mon May 1, 2017 5:28 pm

Love was a 26/12/4 big who had 60 TS% and was shooting 38% from 3.

That's pretty insane...I think people underestimate how good Minny Love was. A lot of people had him as a top-5 player in the league and it's why people thought that LeBron-Love-Kyrie was the formation of another super team (they are pretty close to that if not that).

Dr Positivity · Post #19 » by **Dr Positivity** » Mon May 1, 2017 6:36 pm

Kevin Love's advanced stats were far better. I'm not going to blame him for his team losing, the Twolves are a mess

Colbinii · Post #20 » by **Colbinii** » Mon May 1, 2017 7:15 pm

NormanDale wrote:
Nah, I don't agree. The Warriors (correctly) refused to give up Klay Thompson for him. You don't do that if you truly believe Love is a Top-5 player.

This actually does not reinforce anything. From what I remember, the Wolves wanted more than just Klay Thompson, and rightfully so.

Also, Top-5 players don't completely fall apart when they change situations or join up together. Look at Wade when LeBron joined him in 2011, or Durant and Curry this year.

Well, these are different situations, no? Dwyane Wade is an all-time great, Kevin Love is not. Durant joined a 73 win team that allowed him to easily integrate himself into the situation. Kevin Love was joining a team with a new coach, and two new stars coming together (both Kyrie and LeBron had never played together, while Curry/Green/Thompson all have played multiple years together, with the same coach and system).

This isn't an apples to apples comparison.

The evidence over the last three years is heavily in favor of the theory (which was somewhat common at the time) that Love's stats were as much a product of his situation as of his ability.

Kevin Love's RPM in 2014: 5.05
Kevin Love's RPM in 2017: 4.46

Not a big difference, at all. In fact, the main difference between 2014 Kevin Love and 2017 Kevin Love is his finishing ability at the rim. In 2014, he was finishing an astonishing 67% of his shots at the rim, which is much different than the 56% he finished this season. '

If 2014 is such an outlier, how come Kevin Love was a 24+ PER player in 2011 and 2012, > 10 WS (and .200 WS/48) in 2011 and 2012, and was great at drawing fouls and finishing inside?

The biggest difference in the change of Kevin Love is what he is asked to do. He plays away from the rim much more, plays a lot less center, and because of this many of his numbers across the board are down. It does not mean he is a lesser player, he simply plays a lesser, and more importantly different role than what he had in Minnesota.

He was a Top-10 or at worst a Top-15 player, but he wasn't a Top-5 player.

He was definitely a top 10 player, and the argument for top 5 was far easier and clearer than the argument for "top 15".