FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay

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FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#1 » by ardee » Sat Jun 3, 2017 9:55 am

eminence wrote:


Image

2011 Dirk Nowitzki
2017 Kevin Durant
1988 Patrick Ewing
2002 Jason Kidd
2015 Kyle Korver
1995 Anthony Mason
2017 Ricky Rubio
2017 Joe Ingles

micahclay wrote:


Image

1991 Michael Jordan
1994 Reggie Miller
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo
1975 Artis Gilmore
2008 Bruce Bowen
1981 Maurice Cheeks
2015 Marvin Williams
2014 Chris Andersen

Contestants have until 4 PM EST on Sunday to submit their write-ups, that is exactly 48 hours. Then after that, hopefully judges can submit their votes in a further 48 hours.
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#2 » by eminence » Sat Jun 3, 2017 11:05 am

Oh boy, Jordan and micah in round one :)

Lineup
PG - Kidd(40)/Rubio(8)
SG - Korver(36)/Ingles(12)
SF - Durant(40)/Ingles(8)
PF - Dirk(28)/Mason(20)
C - Ewing(36)/Dirk(12)

Dirk listed as backup center due to who he'll be defending when Ewing is off the floor (Gilmore/Andersen), leaving Giannis/Williams to Mason. Our Kidd/Korver/Durant/Mason/Dirk lineup will likely be our preferred closing lineup (sub out Korver for Ingles if one or the other is hot from deep).

Roles
Dirk - offensive gravity, force defenses to adjust to his presence as the premier big man shooter the game has seen. Top tier iso scorer.
KD - very similar to Dirk, but brings a unique package to the SF position with his length and rim-protecting skills.
Ewing - be the defensive anchor and a top tier garbage man on the other end.
Kidd - run the offense, lead guard defender.
Korver - provide some more of that fabled 'gravity', essentially remove one defender from playing help defense due to the risk of allowing one of the highest efficiency shots in basketball (open Korver 3).
Mason - bring us some playmaking from the front court, along with great defense from 3-5.
Rubio - be a poor man's Kidd when he takes his spot.
Ingles - hit the open shot, be a tougher defender than anyone expects. Essentially Korver with a slower trigger, more ball skills/defense.

Offensive Strategy
As I'm sure many of you are aware I'm normally a defense first sort of guy, but in this particular match-up I think it's our offense that gets the job done. micah has a long list of strong defenders (Jordan/Giannis/Gilmore/Bowen/Cheeks), but I don't feel they match up particularly well with what we're trying to do. What are we trying to do you ask?

Well here ya go:
1. Funnel some defensive boards to Kidd and get out into transition looking for shooters (Korver/Ingles/KD/Dirk) or rim runners (mainly Ewing). If you can manage it transition offense is almost always the best option. Gilmore being a bit of a plodder could be a liability here (though I'll confess to not having seen too much of his earlier career).
2. Spam the pick and roll with Kidd and Dirk/Ewing. Cheeks is a great defensive PG, but it's always been incredibly tough to stop pass first PGs and it's only gotten tougher in recent years with the number of screens their defender is run through. Should generate plenty of extreme mismatches for Dirk, looks at the rim for Ewing, or just solid looks for the shooters off the help defense rotating.
3. Look for Dirk isolations, micah's team just doesn't have a good answer to Dirk. Giannis is a great, phenomenal athlete, but he's not ready for Dirk in the mid-post, Gilmore isn't any more of an answer (a Kidd/Dirk pick and roll would absolutely feast in that scenario). The smaller defenders that disrupted Dirk earlier in his career (like Bowen) were no longer an option by the time '11 rolled around.
Other options, less ordered:
-KD isos, another great iso player, though any of Giannis/Jordan/Bowen are much better cover options than anybody available for Dirk.
-Constantly look for the wing shooters (Korver/Ingles), they are both in that absolute top tier of pure shooters, if they're both getting plenty of open looks our offense will really hum.

Defensive Strategy
Assignments for starters (whoops, had to adjust :P):
Jordan - Kidd
Miller - Korver
Bowen - KD
Giannis - Dirk
Gilmore - Ewing

Starting with Jordan. Our main defender on him will be Kidd, one of the best defensive guards to ever lace them up, he's got the size and athleticism to hang with Jordan and hopefully contain him from time to time (this is peak Jordan afterall, about the most that could be hoped for). The main guy who'll probably see time on him when Kidd is off might come as a bit of surprise, but it'll be Ingles, has the size advantage and quicker hands than one would expect. Very smart player overall including on defense. But we have a lot of faith in our defensive backcourt, and the only perimeter player we'll really try to actively avoid getting switched on to MJ is Korver. Help defense is where you really hope to contain MJ though, and Ewing down low is a solid option for that, where we have the advantage over some other teams is KD's additional rim protection from the perimeter (KD will primarily be on Bowen when he's in to let him roam a bit on defense and save a bit for offense).

On to Miller. Miller actually seems like a decent spot to 'hide' Korver, Korver's clear weaknesses on D stem from on-ball defense and athleticism, which Miller won't really be punishing him for. In some ways Korver is the evolved role-player version of Miller and will know what to expect with all the off-ball action, I think he'll do a solid job of hanging with him.

Giannis is really the tough one. We've wound up opting for Dirk and daring Giannis to shoot. Mason when he's in will be a stronger matchup. Overall what we wound up feeling is that though Giannis a great young player he's not really among the top tier 2nd options in this competition(he'd be #4 on our team behind Kidd/Durant/Dirk), and daring him to consistently beat us (taking the ball out of Jordan's hands) is a risk we're willing to take. The same good help defense will help to slow Giannis as was there for Jordan.

Gilmore is a decent post up guy and will hit the glass, but we think overall he breaks fairly even with Ewing and don't expect that match-up to swing much in either direction. When Mason is in and Dirk shifts down to center Gilmore will have a bit more of an advantage on offense, but we feel we can easily win that back on the other end where he will really struggle to hang with Dirk or Mason.

Cheeks/Bowen/Williams/Andersen are all decent to good guys who'll fill their role, but game planning too much for them is a bit of a waste, the game will be won or lost based off how we defend those first 4 (and obviously how our offense does as well).

Summary
I think this one overall comes down to whether you feel the more isolated offensive games of Jordan/Giannis can consistently dominate to hang with our well oiled offensive machine (despite the good defenders I don't really think micah's squad has much of a shot at slowing us down). If you think we can disrupt Jordan/Giannis I think the series slants clearly in our favor, and even if we can't I'd still call it a toss-up.

Vote with your heart and feel free to ask any questions left unanswered, I'm looking forward to the discussion generated from these match-ups :)
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#3 » by THKNKG » Sat Jun 3, 2017 4:02 pm

Rotation:

PG: Jordan (20) / Cheeks (28)
SG: Miller (36) / Jordan (12)
SF: Bowen (28) / Jordan (10) / Giannis (10)
PF: Giannis (32) / Williams (16)
C: Gilmore (38) / Anderson (10)

This team is practically positionless, and could easily be considered slightly unorthodox. Offensively, either Giannis or MJ are primary ball-handlers, with Cheeks as the point off the bench. Giannis will be the primary point though, as having Jordan and Reggie off-ball is a nice deal. That really spaces out the defense, and minimizes the impact a defender like Ewing can have.

Defensively, MJ will match up with Kidd, Reggie with whoever is at SG, Bowen with KD. Giannis will mainly cover Dirk, so hopefully his unlimited wingspan will contain Dirk better than some may. He'll also tire Dirk out on D to some degree. If not on Dirk, he and MJ will also both work on KD some. Gilmore will obviously cover Ewing.

Matchup weaknesses:

Scorers, scorers, scorers - his team is packed with tall, lengthy ATG scorers. I think I have a decent chance at at least slowing them down a bit, but they're still going to get theirs. Kidd's playmaking could really hurt me, so I'm sticking a rabid dog on him to reduce that as much as I'm able. The goal is to contain everyone else as much as humanly possible, so that even though KD and Dirk will score, hopefully no one else will.

Strengths:
Off-ball scoring
Defense
Shooting

Key points:

O
- space the floor to limit Ewing's impact
- let MJ go crazy
- transition, transition, transition
- off ball movement (shooting/cutting)

D
-MJ shut down Kidd's playmaking
-Put long arm guy on tall guy
-put physical guy on finesse tall skinny guy
-Artis anchor the paint

Overall, it's a really good matchup, I feel.
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PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#4 » by ElGee » Sun Jun 4, 2017 12:25 am

Ever watch game 1 of a series and see a team just feast on a tactical error? Like constantly going under the PnR or failing to extend coverage on a stretch big? Part of me thinks a matchup like this comes down to making sure both teams have their P's and Q's in order.

With that said, I see a marginal offense from Micah. I'm not sure how Gilmore really brings Ewing away from the rim. Jordan going all Jordan-y is fine, especially with Miller out there, but I don't see it as a high-ceiling lineup in a league like this where defenses are more stout than average. Case in point, 88 Ewing on the backend of a team with Durant and Kidd -- that's the making of a regular "elite" defense, and in a fantasy league it doesn't even really stand out to me.

I'm also compelled Eminence's Dirk-first approach mixed with what he describes. There's not really any stopping that, and both Dirk and KD kill you off ball too. And Kidd is a damn bulldog -- constantly pressuring the D when on ball and a great rebounder/passer. Oh and he's got freaking Korver flying around there to cash in on any breakdown. My biggest concern with his team is actually the need for Ewing to constantly eat up possessions with the Patrick Ewing offense brought to you by Patrick Ewing. I'm also wincing a little at Mase guarding Giannis. Don't think it will be a disaster, I just don't think that turns out great. He may also be over relying on Slowmo JoeNobili. I think foot speed will be a major, major issue with him guarding 91 Jordan.

Leaning Eminence but will think further about it...
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#5 » by eminence » Sun Jun 4, 2017 1:13 am

ElGee wrote:
I'm also compelled Eminence's Dirk-first approach mixed with what he describes. There's not really any stopping that, and both Dirk and KD kill you off ball too. And Kidd is a damn bulldog -- constantly pressuring the D when on ball and a great rebounder/passer. Oh and he's got freaking Korver flying around there to cash in on any breakdown. My biggest concern with his team is actually the need for Ewing to constantly eat up possessions with the Patrick Ewing offense brought to you by Patrick Ewing. I'm also wincing a little at Mase guarding Giannis. Don't think it will be a disaster, I just don't think that turns out great. He may also be over relying on Slowmo JoeNobili. I think foot speed will be a major, major issue with him guarding 91 Jordan.


Good points/concerns here, wanted to give my quick thoughts on them:
-Ewing trying to hijack the offense was a concern of mine coming in, but I think with Kidd running things he'll stay in line (Kidd's always struck me as a pretty strong leader on and off court - if not the world's best coach). One small thing I think could help here is the ages of the players involved, Korver(33),Dirk(32),Ingles(29),Kidd/Durant/Mase(28),Rubio(26),Ewing(25). I could see being the youngest helping Pat to more naturally defer (along with this being massively more offensive talent than he ever really played with).
-Giannis is absolutely a matchup nightmare at the 4 (and really anywhere), easily his strongest selling point. But I'm not sure why you're concerned about Mase in particular, memory could be a bit hazy but I remember him getting out and defending guys on the perimeter as well as any big guy (well, he's not all that big by NBA standards, but you get my point).
-This one I'm not too worried about simply because it's a ~4 minute a game type of problem, with Kidd receiving the main assignment. Though I do think you underrate poor Joe's footspeed, he was easily the Jazz's best perimeter defender this playoffs, it was great to see him out there hustling his butt off.
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#6 » by drza » Sun Jun 4, 2017 2:14 am

Wow. This is interesting. Some thought dumps as I try to work through this...

1) This is an example of a situation where I feel like one team might be better in a vacuum, but I'm not sure they win the match-up. An offense built around Dirk/Durant as savant off-ball threat scorers with Jason Kidd at the point, another shooter at the 2 and Pat Ewing as the center sounds absurd, and I can see a Warriors-like oppressive unit (WLOU) built on this. Micah's squad seems like more iso scorers, and that's a harder approach against WLOU units.

But.

2) Last year I watched the Thunder beat the Spurs and give the Warriors ALL they could handle in the playoffs, and to me the biggest reason was Russell Westbrook's inhuman relentless approach. In a 7-game series, having one guy that can put THAT KIND of pressure on a team, consistently, can be it's own weapon of mass destruction. And of course, Jordan was the prototype of that kind of relentless scorer, but at much higher efficiency. But interestingly...Jordan wasn't the first that brought the Westbrook analogy to mind. It was instead Giannis as the power point forward that triggered the thought, because when he's focused and attacking downhill he puts mega pressure on defenses with his length and athletic ability as a finisher plus his ability to pass to teammates to attack imbalanced defenses.

3) Seems to me that Dirk defending Giannis full-time is a terrible idea. Dirk's a solid defender in the right circumstances, but there's no way that I want him on an iso island on-ball all-game against the opposing team's main ball-handler. Either Dirk's getting in foul trouble, or Giannis is in the paint all game and Ewing is in foul trouble. Frankly, I probably put Durant on Giannis and let Dirk play off of Bowen.

4) If Giannis is the full-time defender of Dirk, I think I run my offense more through Durant. Dirk is an offensive unicorn, which makes him very difficult to defend...especially once he brought his post-up game into it. But the best defenders of him tended (early in his career) to be those with the footspeed to defend his face-up game and the toughness to make his postgame difficult. He outgrew those Stephen Jackson-like defenders by 2011...but Giannis is freaking 7-feet tall with mantis arms. He can handle Dirk on the face-up, and if Dirk posts him he's still dealing with someone just as tall and shooting over that length. Dirk would get his, no doubt, but he wouldn't create the type of mismatches, spacing and gravity that you usually expect from him.

5) I think Cheeks needs to be getting more attention. He's playing 28 minutes a game, and he's a big impact player. But more than that, when he's on the court, Kidd has to guard him. He has to, Cheeks would torture Kyle Korver. So, in that situation...who is Korver guarding? Who is guarding Jordan? Does Korver have to be hidden on the bench, keeping him from getting his 36 minutes? Does this mean that Ingles is spending more like 15 minutes a game on Jordan instead of 5?

6) I frankly don't see either center contributing majorly on offense in this match-up. There are too many perimeter scorers, so anything outside of garbage buckets for the centers may actually hurt the offense. Staying away from the personality questions (e.g. can the centers be happy with that), to me this also makes Ewing and Gilmore very similar in expectations and execution. Both are defensive anchor bigs in the paint, protecting the rim but not especially mobile. And really, in this type of match-up, I'm questioning whether either center is playing anywhere near the 36 or 38 minutes suggested. I'm thinking that whichever team goes small-ball first tortures the other one with quickness, and that both sides eventually end up with their small units. I'm seeing lots of:

Cheeks/Jordan/Reggie/Bowen/Giannis

vs

Kidd/Korver/Durant/Mason/Dirk

line-ups.

7) Kidd's not a pick-and-roll point guard, nor is he a big scoring threat. As such, especially when the opposing defense features a perimeter defensive who's-who of Cheeks/Jordan/Bowen, I think Kidd would have trouble running a WLOU-type offense against this particular team. Especially since Dirk and Durant can't make the opposing defense collapse due to mismatches. Thus, I feel like the primary offensive production in this series will look more like a series of isos than the type of free-flowing that we see from the best team units. Which brings me to...

8) Michael Jeffrey Jordan. I'm on point 8, and I really haven't even mentioned him all that much yet. Yes, Kidd would be a good defender for him. But good is relative...Jordan would still give him a high-efficiency upper 30s if called upon. And he'd be playing off the ball, with Giannis or Cheeks pressuring the defense and Reggie as a relief valve. Thus, when Jordan gets it, he's going at a defender that may be in the midst of rotating back to him and doesn't have nearly the type of help that you'd like to put on him. Because if they ARE helping on Jordan to the extend needed, then Giannis is scoring 25 points directly at the rim and/or Reggie is getting wide-open looks.

Conclusion: I just think Micah's team just applies too much relentless pressure on Eminence in this particular match-up. Wouldn't be surprised at all if, in this hypothetical league, Eminence's team had the better regular season record. But I don't like the match-ups for him...and he doesn't have enough on defense to handle the versatile relentlessness of Micah's squad. Ewing's not mobile enough to keep Jordan and Giannis from finishing from different angles without getting in foul trouble. Maybe if Durant and Ewing were instead Kawhi and Olajuwon, I'd feel differently. But unless the conversation really changes the way I'd see it playing out, I'm really leaning towards Micah's squad taking this. Maybe in 5 or 6 games.
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#7 » by eminence » Sun Jun 4, 2017 2:49 am

drza wrote:
Spoiler:
Wow. This is interesting. Some thought dumps as I try to work through this...

1) This is an example of a situation where I feel like one team might be better in a vacuum, but I'm not sure they win the match-up. An offense built around Dirk/Durant as savant off-ball threat scorers with Jason Kidd at the point, another shooter at the 2 and Pat Ewing as the center sounds absurd, and I can see a Warriors-like oppressive unit (WLOU) built on this. Micah's squad seems like more iso scorers, and that's a harder approach against WLOU units.

But.

2) Last year I watched the Thunder beat the Spurs and give the Warriors ALL they could handle in the playoffs, and to me the biggest reason was Russell Westbrook's inhuman relentless approach. In a 7-game series, having one guy that can put THAT KIND of pressure on a team, consistently, can be it's own weapon of mass destruction. And of course, Jordan was the prototype of that kind of relentless scorer, but at much higher efficiency. But interestingly...Jordan wasn't the first that brought the Westbrook analogy to mind. It was instead Giannis as the power point forward that triggered the thought, because when he's focused and attacking downhill he puts mega pressure on defenses with his length and athletic ability as a finisher plus his ability to pass to teammates to attack imbalanced defenses.

3) Seems to me that Dirk defending Giannis full-time is a terrible idea. Dirk's a solid defender in the right circumstances, but there's no way that I want him on an iso island on-ball all-game against the opposing team's main ball-handler. Either Dirk's getting in foul trouble, or Giannis is in the paint all game and Ewing is in foul trouble. Frankly, I probably put Durant on Giannis and let Dirk play off of Bowen.

4) If Giannis is the full-time defender of Dirk, I think I run my offense more through Durant. Dirk is an offensive unicorn, which makes him very difficult to defend...especially once he brought his post-up game into it. But the best defenders of him tended (early in his career) to be those with the footspeed to defend his face-up game and the toughness to make his postgame difficult. He outgrew those Stephen Jackson-like defenders by 2011...but Giannis is freaking 7-feet tall with mantis arms. He can handle Dirk on the face-up, and if Dirk posts him he's still dealing with someone just as tall and shooting over that length. Dirk would get his, no doubt, but he wouldn't create the type of mismatches, spacing and gravity that you usually expect from him.

5) I think Cheeks needs to be getting more attention. He's playing 28 minutes a game, and he's a big impact player. But more than that, when he's on the court, Kidd has to guard him. He has to, Cheeks would torture Kyle Korver. So, in that situation...who is Korver guarding? Who is guarding Jordan? Does Korver have to be hidden on the bench, keeping him from getting his 36 minutes? Does this mean that Ingles is spending more like 15 minutes a game on Jordan instead of 5?

6) I frankly don't see either center contributing majorly on offense in this match-up. There are too many perimeter scorers, so anything outside of garbage buckets for the centers may actually hurt the offense. Staying away from the personality questions (e.g. can the centers be happy with that), to me this also makes Ewing and Gilmore very similar in expectations and execution. Both are defensive anchor bigs in the paint, protecting the rim but not especially mobile. And really, in this type of match-up, I'm questioning whether either center is playing anywhere near the 36 or 38 minutes suggested. I'm thinking that whichever team goes small-ball first tortures the other one with quickness, and that both sides eventually end up with their small units. I'm seeing lots of:

Cheeks/Jordan/Reggie/Bowen/Giannis

vs

Kidd/Korver/Durant/Mason/Dirk

line-ups.

7) Kidd's not a pick-and-roll point guard, nor is he a big scoring threat. As such, especially when the opposing defense features a perimeter defensive who's-who of Cheeks/Jordan/Bowen, I think Kidd would have trouble running a WLOU-type offense against this particular team. Especially since Dirk and Durant can't make the opposing defense collapse due to mismatches. Thus, I feel like the primary offensive production in this series will look more like a series of isos than the type of free-flowing that we see from the best team units. Which brings me to...

8) Michael Jeffrey Jordan. I'm on point 8, and I really haven't even mentioned him all that much yet. Yes, Kidd would be a good defender for him. But good is relative...Jordan would still give him a high-efficiency upper 30s if called upon. And he'd be playing off the ball, with Giannis or Cheeks pressuring the defense and Reggie as a relief valve. Thus, when Jordan gets it, he's going at a defender that may be in the midst of rotating back to him and doesn't have nearly the type of help that you'd like to put on him. Because if they ARE helping on Jordan to the extend needed, then Giannis is scoring 25 points directly at the rim and/or Reggie is getting wide-open looks.

Conclusion: I just think Micah's team just applies too much relentless pressure on Eminence in this particular match-up. Wouldn't be surprised at all if, in this hypothetical league, Eminence's team had the better regular season record. But I don't like the match-ups for him...and he doesn't have enough on defense to handle the versatile relentlessness of Micah's squad. Ewing's not mobile enough to keep Jordan and Giannis from finishing from different angles without getting in foul trouble. Maybe if Durant and Ewing were instead Kawhi and Olajuwon, I'd feel differently. But unless the conversation really changes the way I'd see it playing out, I'm really leaning towards Micah's squad taking this. Maybe in 5 or 6 games.


Just to address Cheeks (as it is the one that is somewhat a question directed to me), I don't see Korver as ever winding up with that duty (at least for any prolonged period). If Miller/Bowen are ever in the game he will be on one of them. Some combination of Kidd/Rubio and Durant/Ingles will handle the Cheeks and Jordan or Giannis combo (when Giannis is at the '3'). Should he go with a Cheeks/Jordan/Giannis/Williams/??? lineup then I'd likely be responding with a Kidd/Ingles/Durant/Dirk/??? lineup that would see Ingles on Cheeks. In which case I'd be far more excited about the Dirk/Williams matchup than any Cheeks/Ingles imbalances.

Overall I think Giannis is getting more playmaking/offensive credit than he deserves. A not particularly inspiring Toronto defense (11th in the league - though improved post-trades) routinely gave him serious trouble in the playoffs and at times it looked like Middleton was the better option for the Bucks to run their offense through.
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#8 » by THKNKG » Sun Jun 4, 2017 9:21 am

eminence wrote:
drza wrote:
Spoiler:
Wow. This is interesting. Some thought dumps as I try to work through this...

1) This is an example of a situation where I feel like one team might be better in a vacuum, but I'm not sure they win the match-up. An offense built around Dirk/Durant as savant off-ball threat scorers with Jason Kidd at the point, another shooter at the 2 and Pat Ewing as the center sounds absurd, and I can see a Warriors-like oppressive unit (WLOU) built on this. Micah's squad seems like more iso scorers, and that's a harder approach against WLOU units.

But.

2) Last year I watched the Thunder beat the Spurs and give the Warriors ALL they could handle in the playoffs, and to me the biggest reason was Russell Westbrook's inhuman relentless approach. In a 7-game series, having one guy that can put THAT KIND of pressure on a team, consistently, can be it's own weapon of mass destruction. And of course, Jordan was the prototype of that kind of relentless scorer, but at much higher efficiency. But interestingly...Jordan wasn't the first that brought the Westbrook analogy to mind. It was instead Giannis as the power point forward that triggered the thought, because when he's focused and attacking downhill he puts mega pressure on defenses with his length and athletic ability as a finisher plus his ability to pass to teammates to attack imbalanced defenses.

3) Seems to me that Dirk defending Giannis full-time is a terrible idea. Dirk's a solid defender in the right circumstances, but there's no way that I want him on an iso island on-ball all-game against the opposing team's main ball-handler. Either Dirk's getting in foul trouble, or Giannis is in the paint all game and Ewing is in foul trouble. Frankly, I probably put Durant on Giannis and let Dirk play off of Bowen.

4) If Giannis is the full-time defender of Dirk, I think I run my offense more through Durant. Dirk is an offensive unicorn, which makes him very difficult to defend...especially once he brought his post-up game into it. But the best defenders of him tended (early in his career) to be those with the footspeed to defend his face-up game and the toughness to make his postgame difficult. He outgrew those Stephen Jackson-like defenders by 2011...but Giannis is freaking 7-feet tall with mantis arms. He can handle Dirk on the face-up, and if Dirk posts him he's still dealing with someone just as tall and shooting over that length. Dirk would get his, no doubt, but he wouldn't create the type of mismatches, spacing and gravity that you usually expect from him.

5) I think Cheeks needs to be getting more attention. He's playing 28 minutes a game, and he's a big impact player. But more than that, when he's on the court, Kidd has to guard him. He has to, Cheeks would torture Kyle Korver. So, in that situation...who is Korver guarding? Who is guarding Jordan? Does Korver have to be hidden on the bench, keeping him from getting his 36 minutes? Does this mean that Ingles is spending more like 15 minutes a game on Jordan instead of 5?

6) I frankly don't see either center contributing majorly on offense in this match-up. There are too many perimeter scorers, so anything outside of garbage buckets for the centers may actually hurt the offense. Staying away from the personality questions (e.g. can the centers be happy with that), to me this also makes Ewing and Gilmore very similar in expectations and execution. Both are defensive anchor bigs in the paint, protecting the rim but not especially mobile. And really, in this type of match-up, I'm questioning whether either center is playing anywhere near the 36 or 38 minutes suggested. I'm thinking that whichever team goes small-ball first tortures the other one with quickness, and that both sides eventually end up with their small units. I'm seeing lots of:

Cheeks/Jordan/Reggie/Bowen/Giannis

vs

Kidd/Korver/Durant/Mason/Dirk

line-ups.

7) Kidd's not a pick-and-roll point guard, nor is he a big scoring threat. As such, especially when the opposing defense features a perimeter defensive who's-who of Cheeks/Jordan/Bowen, I think Kidd would have trouble running a WLOU-type offense against this particular team. Especially since Dirk and Durant can't make the opposing defense collapse due to mismatches. Thus, I feel like the primary offensive production in this series will look more like a series of isos than the type of free-flowing that we see from the best team units. Which brings me to...

8) Michael Jeffrey Jordan. I'm on point 8, and I really haven't even mentioned him all that much yet. Yes, Kidd would be a good defender for him. But good is relative...Jordan would still give him a high-efficiency upper 30s if called upon. And he'd be playing off the ball, with Giannis or Cheeks pressuring the defense and Reggie as a relief valve. Thus, when Jordan gets it, he's going at a defender that may be in the midst of rotating back to him and doesn't have nearly the type of help that you'd like to put on him. Because if they ARE helping on Jordan to the extend needed, then Giannis is scoring 25 points directly at the rim and/or Reggie is getting wide-open looks.

Conclusion: I just think Micah's team just applies too much relentless pressure on Eminence in this particular match-up. Wouldn't be surprised at all if, in this hypothetical league, Eminence's team had the better regular season record. But I don't like the match-ups for him...and he doesn't have enough on defense to handle the versatile relentlessness of Micah's squad. Ewing's not mobile enough to keep Jordan and Giannis from finishing from different angles without getting in foul trouble. Maybe if Durant and Ewing were instead Kawhi and Olajuwon, I'd feel differently. But unless the conversation really changes the way I'd see it playing out, I'm really leaning towards Micah's squad taking this. Maybe in 5 or 6 games.


Just to address Cheeks (as it is the one that is somewhat a question directed to me), I don't see Korver as ever winding up with that duty (at least for any prolonged period). If Miller/Bowen are ever in the game he will be on one of them. Some combination of Kidd/Rubio and Durant/Ingles will handle the Cheeks and Jordan or Giannis combo (when Giannis is at the '3'). Should he go with a Cheeks/Jordan/Giannis/Williams/??? lineup then I'd likely be responding with a Kidd/Ingles/Durant/Dirk/??? lineup that would see Ingles on Cheeks. In which case I'd be far more excited about the Dirk/Williams matchup than any Cheeks/Ingles imbalances.

Overall I think Giannis is getting more playmaking/offensive credit than he deserves. A not particularly inspiring Toronto defense (11th in the league - though improved post-trades) routinely gave him serious trouble in the playoffs and at times it looked like Middleton was the better option for the Bucks to run their offense through.


I'll respond to your response :P

I'd say the primary small ball lineup my team would run that I had in mind was
Cheeks/Reggie/Jordan/Williams/Giannis
But with the Ingles lineup, you mentioned, I would move Jordan onto Durant and Giannis would stay on Dirk, and Williams would take the other big. In small ball lineups, I would certainly say you have the advantage with big men, but I'd say I have a big advantage on the wings as well.

Fair point about Giannis. He's not otherworldly by any stretch, but with off ball players like Reggie and MJ, I don't need him to be.
All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)

PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#9 » by ardee » Sun Jun 4, 2017 9:30 am

I really don't know if Giannis is going to be effective guarding 2011 Dirk. His post game was flawless at that point. 2005-2007 Dirk was bothered by smaller defenders like Marion and T-Mac but by 2011 he was unstoppable.

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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#10 » by THKNKG » Sun Jun 4, 2017 10:40 am

ardee wrote:I really don't know if Giannis is going to be effective guarding 2011 Dirk. His post game was flawless at that point. 2005-2007 Dirk was bothered by smaller defenders like Marion and T-Mac but by 2011 he was unstoppable.

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I agree that no one could effectively guard Dirk; I just think if anyone can make any sort of dent, it's someone as long and tall and athletic as Giannis.
All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)

PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#11 » by THKNKG » Mon Jun 5, 2017 3:53 pm

Bump for the sake of voting
All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)

PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Mon Jun 5, 2017 5:03 pm

Two unusual teams. Eminence is basically spamming 3's and long twos unless Mason is out there; heck, even Ewing had good range. Kidd was still a lousy shooter so MJ would have to work against his open court but not terribly hard in the open court. Mason was more strong than quick, he played bigger and slower even as a 3.

Micahclay is relying on Giannis's playmaking at the PF spot (speaking of unusual) which is sometimes spectacular and sometimes discombobulated. On the other hand, he has Jordan.

Outside shooting favors Eminence by a little, Reggie Miller can stretch a defense (Bowen not so much as he tends to just say in his corner) and Marvin gives you a bit more range too but nothing like Eminence's array of jump shooters.

Inside scoring favors Micahclay significantly both with an edge to Gilmore, whose 75 year was easily his best, still active defensively and offensively (he declined significantly in both areas in Chicago as they had him playing very low post where he was much more stationary if also more efficient) but also mentally. Also, well, Jordan.

Defense is pretty even in a vacuum but Micahclay's team is better built to take advantage of Eminence than visa versa.

Playmaking favors Eminence as they have a bunch of players who are better at making the second pass quickly (neither center is very good in this regard) plus more of a true PG.

Rebounding is an area where I go back and forth, not sure who comes out on top in the end. KD over Bowen would be the strongest advantage but there are lots of little back and forth issues.

Finally intangibles. Eminence's team should have less ego issues and work together better. I worry about how Jordan's abrasive alpha male act will affect Artis Gilmore who had a shy retiring personality however Jordan showed that his style did create teams that played together and won so you can't fault him that much. In the end, I have to go with talent here and Micahclay just has a bit more talent.

Vote: Micahclay
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#13 » by THKNKG » Wed Jun 7, 2017 1:37 am

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All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)

PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis
SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan
SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen
PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams
C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#14 » by ElGee » Wed Jun 7, 2017 5:23 am

So obviously Jordan will be the alpha and play Jordan-ball. But I don't really feel 28 minutes of Bowen, 42 minutes of Giannis and 38 minutes of Gilmore create a fantastic offense around him. Bowen's effective in the corners and that's about it, and Gilmore better in the post than say Luc Longley. Doesn't feel like a real high-end offense though, although the defense should be good with Gilmore back there and Jordan/Bowen.

Eminence is going to organically focus on Dirk the way the early 2000's Mavs did I would imagine. And the small lineup with Dirk at the 5 will be super juiced on offense, stretching Gilmore to open up the lane for KD or even Kidd. Both Kidd and Rubio are designed to feed these guys and make up for their lack of elite passing, and he'll always have shooters to cash in and create more space. Is MJ slowing down KD? Seems unlikely. Bowen? Don't think so. I think Dirk will feast on Giannis (can he guard the post well?). It's a matchup that, I think, favors Eminence well given the objective skill set of each team. Tough one.

Vote: Eminence
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Re: FGA Restricted All-Time Fantasy Draft Playoffs WCR1: (1) eminence vs (8) micahclay 

Post#15 » by Statlanta » Thu Jun 8, 2017 9:52 pm

Bump for outside votes
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