I might change my mind on Russell being over Wilt

[70sFan]

I'd like to see 1968 series. Without available video we can't make fair conclusion. Articles and quotes are so variable in Wilt aspect that it's hard to either blame or defend him. What I know is that Sixers were injured team and they would have beaten Celtics, had they been healthy.

[THKNKG]

I want to study and see how much impact Wilt's play styles contributed to winning. Obviously his sixer days did to the max, but what about his volume scoring warrior days?

[70sFan]

I want to study and see how much impact Wilt's play styles contributed to winning. Obviously his sixer days did to the max, but what about his volume scoring warrior days?

For me what he did in 1964 with such a weak offensive roster was extremely impressive and it shows that he could be very impactful even as a volume scorer. I know they were weak offensively, but when you see how little offensive talent Hannum had around him it's understandable.

[THKNKG]

I want to study and see how much impact Wilt's play styles contributed to winning. Obviously his sixer days did to the max, but what about his volume scoring warrior days?

For me what he did in 1964 with such a weak offensive roster was extremely impressive and it shows that he could be very impactful even as a volume scorer. I know they were weak offensively, but when you see how little offensive talent Hannum had around him it's understandable.

How much of the difference in impact between him and Russell is due to team circumstances?

[70sFan]

I want to study and see how much impact Wilt's play styles contributed to winning. Obviously his sixer days did to the max, but what about his volume scoring warrior days?

For me what he did in 1964 with such a weak offensive roster was extremely impressive and it shows that he could be very impactful even as a volume scorer. I know they were weak offensively, but when you see how little offensive talent Hannum had around him it's understandable.

How much of the difference in impact between him and Russell is due to team circumstances?

Well, Wilt with right circumstances could be more impactful than Russell but consistently Bill impacted the game more. Russell would be extremely impactful regadless of roster or gameplan. Wilt needed good coach, otherwise hr couldn't approach Russell level.

I say it as a huge Wilt fan. As I said before; peak-wise Wilt was better player but even if Bill played under better circumstances it's hard to blame him for that because he was a huge reason of this situation.

I'd like to add randomly that Alex Hannum is the most underrated and underappreciated coach in NBA history.

[Warspite]

I’m a Wilt fan and 100% believe that Wilt Chamberlain was

--the greatest offensive force and scorer in the history of the league
--the best distributing big man in the history of the league
--one of the super elite defensive big men in the history of the game

The problem I that he wasn’t all of those things at the same time. Part of it was coaching. But part of it was Wilt’s mentality. I’ve written about this before; Wilt needed and wanted to be told things. That is a double edged sword. If you’ve got a good/great coach, you will get the most out of Wilt. Sharman and Hannum did. If you’re a bad coach or don’t communicate well with him … well, Wilt wasn’t a take charge guy. He could fill that role if told to. And when he did what he was told, and it didn’t work out, he took the blame. That is not the dynamic personality suited to big game basketball.

Here’s a direct comparison I like to use. In Game 7 of the 1968 EC finals, when his teammates weren’t doing anything, Wilt kept passing them the ball. Yes, Alex Hannum should have said something (and admitted as much later—good for him). But Wilt was on the court and Wilt was passive. Wilt should have done something. A similar situation occurred in the 1974 NBA Finals Game 7. Heinsohn made the double teams of Kareem constant after Kareem had a 14 point first quarter; as with the Sixers six year earlier, Boston forced the perimeter players to come up big. So Kareem was scoreless in the second quarter because he was doing what he was told to do—what every player is told to do in that situation. He was passing the ball to the open man—just what Wilt did in the 1968 EC Finals Game 7. And, like the Sixers, the other players did not come up. The only other guy on the court for the Bucks that was really hitting was Mickey Davis, who was playing in place of the injured Lucius Allen. Mickey didn’t shoot much, but when he did, it went in in this game…he was 6-9 from the field. The other three starters were 8-28. Oscar was 2-13. The Celtics had a 15 point lead in the middle of the third quarter.

And Kareem saw that and adjusted. He simply started shooting again—whether he had a good shot or not. Whether he was double teamed or not. He was the alpha player and saw that others weren’t getting it done, and he did what he had to do. Kareem scored 12 in his last 16 minutes of court time. The Bucks cut it to one early in the fourth quarter, but Boston went on a couple of runs and had it put away in the final minutes.

So what’s the point? Both guys lost—but the way they lost reflects very differently on each player. Kareem did what he had to do without having to be told to. There’s never been any indication that Larry Costello was going crazy setting up plays (that was not his style). Costello didn’t need to. Kareem saw what was going on and knew what he had to do. Wilt was not like that. When his teammates weren’t scoring in the 1968 Game 7, he kept passing them the ball. The guy who had led the league in FG% for the last four years and never averaged less than 24 points a game kept passing the ball. And the Sixers lost. It’s very different from the way the Bucks lost (and this is leaving out Richie Powers ignoring Dave Cowens’s fouls in the fourth quarter). One guy stepped in and made decisions to try and right a bad situation. The other did not.

The same problem reared its head in 1970. Willis Reed got hurt in the second quarter of Game 5. And in Game 6, Wilt was dominant … with Reed out, he went 20-27 from the field and had 45 points and 27 boards. It was amazing. Of course, Reed made his dramatic appearance and played in Game 7—and the Knicks won. Everyone thinks that’s how the Knicks won the series. That’s bull$#@*. The Lakers lost that series in Game 5, when the Knicks had no C to square up against Wilt for 26 minutes—and won anyway. Dave DeBusschere manned up and played tight, trying to keep the ball from Wilt. He simply swarmed a guy that was 6-7 inches taller and outweighed him by 80 plus pounds. Wilt only took 9 shots after Reed went down and the Knicks won that game. Sure, Wilt got 45 in the next game. But that only highlighted the fact that he didn’t do that for the final 36 minutes of Game 5. Did it take a day off to realize his massive size advantage against DeBusschere? That simply, I don’t know, waving for the ball and getting a high pass might work? Really? Again, passivity.

I know it sounds funny to say that and claim to be a Wilt fan. But I am. I think Wilt suffered from more bad luck than any great player in history. And I think that trait of doing what he was told brought some wondrous results—no great player was ever asked to change his game as much as Wilt. Consider:
--In 1962, Wilt was asked to score more than anyone in history. He did, the team set a franchise record for wins, and lost a game 7 to the eventual champion Celtics on a very questionable goaltending call by Boston Homer Mendy Rudolph.
--In 1967, Wilt was asked to reduce his scoring, up his D, and pass like no other C had done before (or has done since). He did, the team set an NBA record for wins, and won a title.
--In 1972, Wilt was asked to be a low but hyper-efficient scorer, be the best defensive player in the league, and key the fast break with his rebounding and outlet passes. He did, the team set an NBA record for wins, and won a title.

There’s no doubt that Wilt could have done more to help himself and his legacy. But he did have several situations that were not particularly in his control, like that 1962 game 7 goaltending call. Or that 1968 game, when his teammates went stone cold in Game 7 of EC finals (the other starters shot 25-74). What if any of them had shot 45%? Or 1969, when Butch Van Breda Kopff kept Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of game 7 of the finals when Wilt was asking/begging to be put back in? A couple of different bounces, a coaching decision and/or a correct referee call—how would we look at Wilt if he’d won 4 or 5 titles? But that didn’t happen, unfortunately for him. Wilt got the raw end of the deal more than once. Still—I can’t discount the passivity. I hate to say it, but I simply cannot take a player like that over Bill Russell.

There is a debate who the GOAT player is.

However for RealGM there is no debate who the GOAT poster is.

This is another example of why TLAF is the GOAT.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'd like to add randomly that Alex Hannum is the most underrated and underappreciated coach in NBA history.

I've said this before, but the only two teams to prevent a Bill Russell led team from winning a championship in Russell's college, Olympic, and NBA career were coached by Alex Hannum.

[ElGee]

hallo Mr Taylor/ ElGee

just received your book and will start reading tonight.looking forward to it.
btw not on your side of the assessment of chamberlain but its an discussion nearly as old as the shotclock...

Awesome! Hope you find value in it and that it at least changes how you see some of this discussion (even if you still side with Wilt).

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Would Wilt win all the Championships if he replaced Russell on the Celtics. The question comes down to leadership. Wilt is the better player but would the Celtics chemistry be damaged by losing Russel and gaining Wilt?

Red Auerbach tried to get Wilt to go to Harvard so that the Celtics could take Wilt in the territorial draft. What if Red succeeded? Wilt joins a team that Russel leads and a team that has already won 3 of the 4 previous championships. Wilt becomes the center and Russel is the starting power forward and the back up center. Would Wilt listen to Red and Russel?