Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash

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Greater Peak

Steve Nash
25
60%
Russell Westbrook
17
40%
 
Total votes: 42

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Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#1 » by mdonnelly1989 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:14 pm

For The REALGM PEAK GUARDS PROJECT:

I have feeling this is going to come down to which kind of style you prefer.

But ultimately it's about IMPACT when comparing such different styles, strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#2 » by feyki » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:19 pm

Nash, for me. But If I believe Westbrook has a defence, which is worth of some all defensive votes, I would take him. But he doesn't have even an average one, on that end.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#3 » by alessandrux » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:38 pm

feyki wrote:Nash, for me. But If I believe Westbrook has a defence, which is worth of some all defensive votes, I would take him. But he doesn't have even an average one, on that end.


Do you mean if Westbrook himself provides some defense or do you mean he needs a competent defensive team (with someone on it who is all-NBA defensive worthy) ?

If you mean the second, OKC does have a pretty competent defensive team and in Roberson an all-NBA defensive player (second team this year, but i think he should have been on the first team instead of Paul/Beverly). I would even argue that Adams could earn an all-defensive spot in the future.

OKCs big struggle is to provide some offense (no second bal-handler on the team and also no playable above-average shooter).
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#4 » by mdonnelly1989 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:30 pm

I prefer Steve Nash. I like his running the floor and creating elite offense over Westbrook's fast break and rebounding ability. It's close though.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#5 » by Johnny Firpo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 pm

Nash. Similar defenders - yes, Westbrook was that awful this year, in his peak season -, but Nash is ultimately the better offensive player.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#6 » by feyki » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:39 pm

alessandrux wrote:
feyki wrote:Nash, for me. But If I believe Westbrook has a defence, which is worth of some all defensive votes, I would take him. But he doesn't have even an average one, on that end.


Do you mean if Westbrook himself provides some defense or do you mean he needs a competent defensive team (with someone on it who is all-NBA defensive worthy) ?

If you mean the second, OKC does have a pretty competent defensive team and in Roberson an all-NBA defensive player (second team this year, but i think he should have been on the first team instead of Paul/Beverly). I would even argue that Adams could earn an all-defensive spot in the future.

OKCs big struggle is to provide some offense (no second bal-handler on the team and also no playable above-average shooter).


He has got some votes in the voting(5 first team as I can see). Did you see it? And I said, If I believe that he has had deserve it; I would take him over Nash, because of his defensive impact changes.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#7 » by mischievous » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:39 am

It's close, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick Westbrook.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#8 » by Winsome Gerbil » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:51 am

Westbrook now.

Let's also not pretend that the intervening years haven't taught us that D'Antoni's system is so PG friendly that almost any PG in it is going to put up inflated career numbers. It goes beyond Nash and Harden, it's also Linsanity and even guys like Nate Robinson and Raymond Felton.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#9 » by Amare_1_Knicks » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:06 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:Nash. Similar defenders - yes, Westbrook was that awful this year, in his peak season -, but Nash is ultimately the better offensive player.


No, he really wasn't even close to as bad as Nash was this past season.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#10 » by Jaivl » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:19 am

Winsome Gerbil wrote:Westbrook now.

Let's also not pretend that the intervening years haven't taught us that D'Antoni's system is so PG friendly that almost any PG in it is going to put up inflated career numbers. It goes beyond Nash and Harden, it's also Linsanity and even guys like Nate Robinson and Raymond Felton.

It's not D'Antoni who bolsters offenses, players do. Nash should be given full credit, period.

Relative ORTg of D'Antoni's coaching career, bolded where D'Antoni seemed to make an impact:

Spoiler:
Suns:
2004 - bunch of PGs : -1.5 offense
2005 - Nash : +8.4 offense (Nash arrival)
2006 - Nash : +5.3 offense
2007 - Nash : +7.4 offense
2008 - Nash : +5.8 offense

2009 - Nash (no D'Antoni) : +5.3 offense
2010 - Nash (no D'Antoni) : +7.7 offense


Knicks:
2008 - Robinson (no D'Antoni) : -2.8 offense

2009 - Duhon : -0.2 offense
2010 - Duhon : +0.0 offense
2011 - Felton : +3.6 offense (arrival of Stoudamire, Melo)
2012 - Davis/Lin : -0.2 offense (Knicks win 18-6 without D'Antoni and score more than with him)

2013 - Felton (no D'Antoni) : +5.2 offense
2014 - Felton (no D'Antoni) : +1.6 offense


Lakers:
2012 - Bryant (no D'Antoni) : +1.4 offense

2013 - Bryant : +1.9 offense
2014 - bunch of PGs : -2.5 offense

2015 - bunch of PGs (no D'Antoni) : -2.2 offense


Rockets:
2016 - Harden (no D'Antoni) : +1.9 offense

2017 - Harden : +5.9 offense
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#11 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:19 am

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:No, he really wasn't even close to as bad as Nash was this past season.

I legitimately think he was even worse. The stat about him contesting the third least shots in the league, only ahead of two centers? Just brutal.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#12 » by bondom34 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:26 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Amare_1_Knicks wrote:No, he really wasn't even close to as bad as Nash was this past season.

I legitimately think he was even worse. The stat about him comtesting the third least shots in the league, only ahead of two centers? Just brutal.

That stat isn't meaningful, I've been over it a few places, but by that measure guys like IT are better than Chris Paul. His DRAPM was a slight positive, something Nash wasn't ever, and all his lineup data follows. He wasn't remotely an awful defender this season. He wasn't great, but certainly not awful.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#13 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:28 am

bondom34 wrote:That stat isn't meaningful, I've been over it a few places, but by that measure guys like IT are better than Chris Paul. His DRAPM was a slight positive, something Nash wasn't ever, and all his lineup data follows. He wasn't remotely an awful defender this season. He wasn't great, but certainly not awful.

How is contesting shots on the perimeter not important in a space and pace league?
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#14 » by bondom34 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:34 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:
bondom34 wrote:That stat isn't meaningful, I've been over it a few places, but by that measure guys like IT are better than Chris Paul. His DRAPM was a slight positive, something Nash wasn't ever, and all his lineup data follows. He wasn't remotely an awful defender this season. He wasn't great, but certainly not awful.

How is contesting shots on the perimeter not important in a space and pace league?

http://fansided.com/2015/02/09/defending-the-three-pointer-mean-avoiding-three-pointer/

http://fansided.com/2015/02/06/defense-variance-luck/

To add to that, here's the data used if you even think this does measure something (and mind you this is the only metric he rates as a poor defender):
http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*28&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

We've got Lillard and Rose the same as Rubio. We've got Harden near leading the league among guards, McCollum, Lavine, and Booker also near the top.

It's both not a very informative metric and the results are so poor at measuring defense it's essentially useless. If you do believe it, fine, but take into account every other defensive measure (DRAPM, DRPM, DBPM, steal rates, lineup data) that says he's either a neutral to slight positive.
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#15 » by Johnny Firpo » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:00 am

bondom34 wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:
bondom34 wrote:That stat isn't meaningful, I've been over it a few places, but by that measure guys like IT are better than Chris Paul. His DRAPM was a slight positive, something Nash wasn't ever, and all his lineup data follows. He wasn't remotely an awful defender this season. He wasn't great, but certainly not awful.

How is contesting shots on the perimeter not important in a space and pace league?

http://fansided.com/2015/02/09/defending-the-three-pointer-mean-avoiding-three-pointer/

http://fansided.com/2015/02/06/defense-variance-luck/

To add to that, here's the data used if you even think this does measure something (and mind you this is the only metric he rates as a poor defender):
http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*28&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

We've got Lillard and Rose the same as Rubio. We've got Harden near leading the league among guards, McCollum, Lavine, and Booker also near the top.

It's both not a very informative metric and the results are so poor at measuring defense it's essentially useless. If you do believe it, fine, but take into account every other defensive measure (DRAPM, DRPM, DBPM, steal rates, lineup data) that says he's either a neutral to slight positive.

Thanks, will go over this later. I agree that alone contesting shots doesn't tell the whole story, but I would be shocked that contesting perimeter shots would be meaningless. Obviously, it's not the same as contesting shots at the rim, but completely meaningless? Maybe when somebody is wide open, and the defender runs out but still nowhere near, I imagine that doesn't do much statistically, but these stats include man to man defense as well, right? Contesting there gotta be meaningful. Or are those one on one situations, and not in the stat at the first place?
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Re: Greater Peak Player? Russell Westbrook or Steve Nash 

Post#16 » by bondom34 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:07 am

Johnny Firpo wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Johnny Firpo wrote:How is contesting shots on the perimeter not important in a space and pace league?

http://fansided.com/2015/02/09/defending-the-three-pointer-mean-avoiding-three-pointer/

http://fansided.com/2015/02/06/defense-variance-luck/

To add to that, here's the data used if you even think this does measure something (and mind you this is the only metric he rates as a poor defender):
http://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/#!?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_3PT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*28&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

We've got Lillard and Rose the same as Rubio. We've got Harden near leading the league among guards, McCollum, Lavine, and Booker also near the top.

It's both not a very informative metric and the results are so poor at measuring defense it's essentially useless. If you do believe it, fine, but take into account every other defensive measure (DRAPM, DRPM, DBPM, steal rates, lineup data) that says he's either a neutral to slight positive.

Thanks, will go over this later. I agree that alone contesting shots doesn't tell the whole story, but I would be shocked that contesting perimeter shots would be meaningless. Obviously, it's not the same as contesting shots at the rim, but completely meaningless? Maybe when somebody is wide open, and the defender runs out but still nowhere near, I imagine that doesn't do much statistically, but these stats include man to man defense as well, right? Contesting there gotta be meaningful. Or are those one on one situations, and not in the stat at the first place?

I shouldn't say meaningless, but not as meaningful as one would think I'd say. A lot of 3 point defense seems to be luck from what I read, and I'd read more into the whole of defense as opposed to one measure that wasn't meant to be a defensive stat to be used. It was meant just as a "hustle" stat, whatever that is. I think it's the same technology they used to use, which Vantage (no longer running that I know of) had a version of that showed the SportVu to even not be accurate.
http://www1.vantagesports.com/Articles/article_view/ViAC4iEAAE8WK0fO

So probably not "meaningless" but when the results are so wonky they don't have any relationship with defensive ability, and don't correlate with any other defensive measures, I'd tend to lean with everything else.

Also, for the purpose of this thread, we're comparing him with Steve Nash defensively, not exactly a stout defender.
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