Where Do You Rank James Worthy All-Time (SF's)?

[ItsThatEasy]

A bit too young to watch prime Showtime so I'm catching up now with highlights.

Any insight on Worthy would be appreciated:

Where does he rank all time among SF's?
How good was he in his prime?
Modern day comp?

[urnoggin]

Ahead of him all-time:
LeBron
Bird
Durant
Dr.J
Pippen
Baylor
Barry
Havlicek
Pierce
Dantley
English
King
maybe Hill, Nance, Marion too

Pretty efficient scorer as a 2nd/3rd option on the Showtime Lakers. Was probably a borderline top 10-15 player in his prime.

[70sFan]

Ahead of him all-time:
LeBron
Bird
Durant
Dr.J
Pippen
Baylor
Barry
Havlicek
Pierce
Dantley
English
King
maybe Hill, Nance, Marion too

Pretty efficient scorer as a 2nd/3rd option on the Showtime Lakers. Was probably a borderline top 10-15 player in his prime.

You also didn't mention Arizin, Hagan, Chet Walker, Bob Dandrige and Marques Johnson who all have excellent case over him.

[clyde21]

Ahead of him all-time:
LeBron
Bird
Durant
Dr.J
Pippen
Baylor
Barry
Havlicek
Pierce
Dantley
English
King
maybe Hill, Nance, Marion too

Pretty efficient scorer as a 2nd/3rd option on the Showtime Lakers. Was probably a borderline top 10-15 player in his prime.

You also didn't mention Arizin, Hagan, Chet Walker, Bob Dandrige and Marques Johnson who all have excellent case over him.

And Kawhi.

[urnoggin]

Ahead of him all-time:
LeBron
Bird
Durant
Dr.J
Pippen
Baylor
Barry
Havlicek
Pierce
Dantley
English
King
maybe Hill, Nance, Marion too

Pretty efficient scorer as a 2nd/3rd option on the Showtime Lakers. Was probably a borderline top 10-15 player in his prime.

You also didn't mention Arizin, Hagan, Chet Walker, Bob Dandrige and Marques Johnson who all have excellent case over him.

And Kawhi.

Kawhi is surely on pace to be ahead of Worthy, but as of right now he only has 6 seasons in the league and only 2 at superstar level so not enough longevity to already be considered ahead of Worthy imo

[wojoaderge]

And Nique. Unfortunately for him, he was never the first option on his team, unlike every other single one of these guys

[70sFan]

Actually, I love watching Big Game James. He's so graceful and devastating at the same time. Not many 6'9 players are as great athleicaly as Worthy and he was also very fubdamentaly sound player.

[feyki]

Around 13-15.

[JordansBulls]

Is Dantley and English ahead of him? I wouldn't put them ahead of him.

[Outside]

I have Worthy at number 25 in my all-time list. SFs I have ahead of him are Bird (6), LeBron (8), Baylor (19), Erving (20), and Pippen (23). I have Havlicek right behind him at 26.

Durant may pass him before he's done. You could make a case for Rick Barry, but I have Worthy ahead of him. Bernard King had great peaks but an uneven career. Grant Hill was on his way to an all-time great career before his injuries, but the injuries held him back. People think of Pierce from the Celtics championship year and after, but he had too much Antoine Walker disease in the years prior to that. Dominique Wilkins had similar explosive athleticism, and Dominique had higher scoring averages, but Worthy was a better all-around player and has a playoff resume that Dominique can't match. Dantley, English, Nance, and Marion are all good players, but I personally don't see how they're even in the conversation with Worthy.

Worthy was a great, great player. He doesn't have the eye-popping stats of a typical first option scorer, but being a secondary scorer behind top 10 all-time greats Kareem and then Magic doesn't mean he's not as good as a primary scorer on a lesser team. He was one of the best combinations of athleticism and skill to play the game. He had an explosive first step with either hand, great spin moves, was a good outside shooter, ran the break as fast as anyone, and used his leaping ability to finish at the rim and dunk over people. I'm not usually a fan of YouTube highlight videos, but the ones of Worthy give you a sense of his outstanding athleticism and skill.

Some notable points in Worthy's favor:

-- Consistently increased his production in the playoffs (Big Game James)
-- Lakers leading scorer in the playoffs in the 1986-87 and 1987-88 championship seasons
-- 1988 finals MVP

For me, one of his most memorable performances was in a losing effort in the 1989 finals. When Byron Scott tore his hamstring before the series started and Magic tore his in game 2, the burden shifted to Worthy. Though they were outmanned, Worthy was great, scoring 25.5 points per game (Kareem was second with 12.5), including 40 in game 4. In one of the games (game 3 or 4?), Worthy and Joe Dumars went back and forth, scoring at will in a great duel. Worthy wouldn't be denied, but Dumars kept pace shot for shot so that the Lakers could never pull away.

Worthy is one of the rare players who didn't really have a weakness. He was both solid and spectacular.

[SpreeS]

I have Worthy at number 25 in my all-time list. SFs I have ahead of him are Bird (6), LeBron (8), Baylor (19), Erving (20), and Pippen (23). I have Havlicek right behind him at 26.

Durant may pass him before he's done. You could make a case for Rick Barry, but I have Worthy ahead of him. Bernard King had great peaks but an uneven career. Grant Hill was on his way to an all-time great career before his injuries, but the injuries held him back. People think of Pierce from the Celtics championship year and after, but he had too much Antoine Walker disease in the years prior to that. Dominique Wilkins had similar explosive athleticism, and Dominique had higher scoring averages, but Worthy was a better all-around player and has a playoff resume that Dominique can't match. Dantley, English, Nance, and Marion are all good players, but I personally don't see how they're even in the conversation with Worthy.

Worthy was a great, great player. He doesn't have the eye-popping stats of a typical first option scorer, but being a secondary scorer behind top 10 all-time greats Kareem and then Magic doesn't mean he's not as good as a primary scorer on a lesser team. He was one of the best combinations of athleticism and skill to play the game. He had an explosive first step with either hand, great spin moves, was a good outside shooter, ran the break as fast as anyone, and used his leaping ability to finish at the rim and dunk over people. I'm not usually a fan of YouTube highlight videos, but the ones of Worthy give you a sense of his outstanding athleticism and skill.

Some notable points in Worthy's favor:

-- Consistently increased his production in the playoffs (Big Game James)
-- Lakers leading scorer in the playoffs in the 1986-87 and 1987-88 championship seasons
-- 1988 finals MVP

For me, one of his most memorable performances was in a losing effort in the 1989 finals. When Byron Scott tore his hamstring before the series started and Magic tore his in game 2, the burden shifted to Worthy. Though they were outmanned, Worthy was great, scoring 25.5 points per game (Kareem was second with 12.5), including 40 in game 4. In one of the games (game 3 or 4?), Worthy and Joe Dumars went back and forth, scoring at will in a great duel. Worthy wouldn't be denied, but Dumars kept pace shot for shot so that the Lakers could never pull away.

Worthy is one of the rare players who didn't really have a weakness. He was both solid and spectacular.

Man, Barry and KD are by far better players and had better careers. Other like Dominique, King, English, Dantley and other primery scorers dont have the case over James, but these two are clearly better. Kawki will pass him too in near future.

[70sFan]

How Dantley, Wilkins and English don't have any case over Worthy? It's just not true.

Also, having Havlicek below Worthy is also hard to understand. John was better defender, playmaker; had MUCH better longevity, more success and accomplishements... How can you have Worthy over John? Because he's more efficient scorer?

[BasketballFan7]

How Dantley, Wilkins and English don't have any case over Worthy? It's just not true.

Also, having Havlicek below Worthy is also hard to understand. John was better defender, playmaker; had MUCH better longevity, more success and accomplishements... How can you have Worthy over John? Because he's more efficient scorer?

The only reasonable argument would be centered around "what if" scenarios. As in, he believes Worthy was pigeon holed into a role that he was overqualified for and would have had success with more offensive primacy.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I think Worth pretty much did what he was capable of doing. I don't think his scoring goes up much on a weaker team. Even if his scoring goes up on a weaker team his efficiency would decrease. Worthy might not get as much attention without the championships.

I don't consider Worthy great defensively so he gets compared to English and Dantley on offense. Dantley was efficient and unstoppable. The complaint against Dantley is that he burns shot clock and disrupts his own team's team offense. Dantley definitely has a case for being better than Worthy. English also has a case for beig better than Worthy.

Bird defended power forwards on a team that played two power forwards with a center. I consider Bird to be the best power forward and consider Duncan to be a center because Duncan played the majority of his minutes at center and would have played center for most teams.

[Outside]

How Dantley, Wilkins and English don't have any case over Worthy? It's just not true.

I consider Dominique Wilkins to have a much stronger case. He has the advantage over Worthy in RS scoring productivity, but Worthy was a better defender, and his PO accomplishments are much better. Not only was Worthy on three championship teams, he was the Lakers' best player in two finals and an outstanding performer in four others. He consistently raised his production in the playoffs.

As great as Dominique was, he never got out of the second round of the playoffs, only got out of the first round three of ten seasons he was in the playoffs, and didn't make the playoffs six other seasons. That's not all his fault, but the playoffs are a major factor in how I assess a player, and those Hawk teams were the Clippers of their day -- really good teams that underperformed in the playoffs.

Alex English is easy for me to dismiss compared to Worthy. He was emblematic of those Nugget teams -- score like crazy, don't stop anyone. They had some good teams but a lot of mediocre ones as well, only getting to 50 wins twice. He also doesn't have a playoff resume to compare to Worthy. English piled up points on teams that never went anywhere, while Worthy was a big part of teams that got to the finals six times and won championships.

I understand that you could argue for Dantley. Like English, he's got the scoring advantage over Worthy, but I do consider Worthy's numbers suppressed by playing on such great teams with multiple other great scorers. I think that the quality, diversity, and power of Worthy's offense is superior to Dantley's. I was never a huge fan of Dantley's ball-stopping, free-throw drawing game. He also doesn't have the playoff resume. He did make it to the finals with Detroit, but it's not a coincidence that the Pistons became champions after trading Dantley for Mark Aguirre.

Also, having Havlicek below Worthy is also hard to understand. John was better defender, playmaker; had MUCH better longevity, more success and accomplishements... How can you have Worthy over John? Because he's more efficient scorer?

Yeah, you're right about that. My all-time list is a new thing for me that I've thrown together to help with with the Top 100 project. I've previously resisted putting players in an absolute ranking and preferred instead to put them in tiers, but I'm taking a shot at actual rankings. Unlike many people who have built and refined their rankings over a period of years, mine is just a couple of weeks old and definitely a work in process that I'm modifying as I assess information and arguments presented in the Top 100 threads. Taking a look at Havlicek more closely, I absolutely need to move him up.

[70sFan]

But Dantley was very impressive in playoffs. He played great in 1984 and 1985. As a Piston, he was clearly the best offensive player in their 1987 run and even in 1988 he was just as impressive as Worthy. Keep in mind that he played against much better defensive teams in East than Worthy in West.

English was actually good defender. The best in this whole Nuggets offensive machine. He was also comfortably better playmaker and better creator for his teammates.

Also, keep in mind how unimpressive Worthy longevity was compared to the other 3. Worthy was star-caliber in 1985-92 period. That's 8 seasons. Compare that to 1977-89 Dantley (13 seasons), 1981-90 English (10 seasons), 1984-94 Wilkins (11 seasons). They did it as the best offensive players on their teams, Worthy didn't so it was easier for him to sustain his career.

[Amares]

Hard to tell exactly, but he is out of top 10 SF, and definiately out of top 50 players, probably out of top 70 too.

[penbeast0]

But Dantley was very impressive in playoffs. He played great in 1984 and 1985. As a Piston, he was clearly the best offensive player in their 1987 run and even in 1988 he was just as impressive as Worthy. Keep in mind that he played against much better defensive teams in East than Worthy in West.

English was actually good defender. The best in this whole Nuggets offensive machine. He was also comfortably better playmaker and better creator for his teammates.

Also, keep in mind how unimpressive Worthy longevity was compared to the other 3. Worthy was star-caliber in 1985-92 period. That's 8 seasons. Compare that to 1977-89 Dantley (13 seasons), 1981-90 English (10 seasons), 1984-94 Wilkins (11 seasons). They did it as the best offensive players on their teams, Worthy didn't so it was easier for him to sustain his career.

Dantley also did such a good job on Larry Bird that Chuck Daly called him the Piston's best DEFENDER . . . sort of a shock to the system there. Otherwise I agree with 70s Fan. English was an average or above average defender, Issel was weak and Kiki Vandeweghe disastrous but the Nuggets actually had some decent defensive teams if you take into account things like creating turnovers as well as opposing efg after Issel retired and was replaced by the at least mediocre Danny Schayes and Wayne Cooper, though TR Dunn was really the team stopper. I have him below both . . . Wilkins is tougher sell to me because of his lesser efficiency and weak defensive effort. Nothing easier to overrate for a casual fan than an inefficient high scorer with poor defense; especially when they are spectacular entertainers like a Nique, Maravich, or Iverson.

[asindc]

I have Worthy at number 25 in my all-time list. SFs I have ahead of him are Bird (6), LeBron (8), Baylor (19), Erving (20), and Pippen (23). I have Havlicek right behind him at 26.

Durant may pass him before he's done. You could make a case for Rick Barry, but I have Worthy ahead of him. Bernard King had great peaks but an uneven career. Grant Hill was on his way to an all-time great career before his injuries, but the injuries held him back. People think of Pierce from the Celtics championship year and after, but he had too much Antoine Walker disease in the years prior to that. Dominique Wilkins had similar explosive athleticism, and Dominique had higher scoring averages, but Worthy was a better all-around player and has a playoff resume that Dominique can't match. Dantley, English, Nance, and Marion are all good players, but I personally don't see how they're even in the conversation with Worthy.

Worthy was a great, great player. He doesn't have the eye-popping stats of a typical first option scorer, but being a secondary scorer behind top 10 all-time greats Kareem and then Magic doesn't mean he's not as good as a primary scorer on a lesser team. He was one of the best combinations of athleticism and skill to play the game. He had an explosive first step with either hand, great spin moves, was a good outside shooter, ran the break as fast as anyone, and used his leaping ability to finish at the rim and dunk over people. I'm not usually a fan of YouTube highlight videos, but the ones of Worthy give you a sense of his outstanding athleticism and skill.

Some notable points in Worthy's favor:

-- Consistently increased his production in the playoffs (Big Game James)
-- Lakers leading scorer in the playoffs in the 1986-87 and 1987-88 championship seasons
-- 1988 finals MVP

For me, one of his most memorable performances was in a losing effort in the 1989 finals. When Byron Scott tore his hamstring before the series started and Magic tore his in game 2, the burden shifted to Worthy. Though they were outmanned, Worthy was great, scoring 25.5 points per game (Kareem was second with 12.5), including 40 in game 4. In one of the games (game 3 or 4?), Worthy and Joe Dumars went back and forth, scoring at will in a great duel. Worthy wouldn't be denied, but Dumars kept pace shot for shot so that the Lakers could never pull away.

Worthy is one of the rare players who didn't really have a weakness. He was both solid and spectacular.

Excellent summary of Worthy's career. Because he was the 3rd option for most of his career, I think people subconsciously downgrade Worthy as an overall player.

[wojoaderge]

I think Worth pretty much did what he was capable of doing. I don't think his scoring goes up much on a weaker team. Even if his scoring goes up on a weaker team his efficiency would decrease. Worthy might not get as much attention without the championships

Even though I kinda gave him the benefit of the doubt, I more or less agree. A lot of his offense came out of the post and on the fastbreak, not off the bounce in iso