Kobe or Shaq All Time

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Shaq or Kobe

Shaq
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83%
Kobe
18
17%
 
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#21 » by mademan » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:32 pm

andrewww wrote:A player 3 spots higher on the ATG list doesnt scream "hands down" better player. But we all know this forum's biases and whom the vocal majority are. Nothing new to see here.


You know a player can be definitively better and the difference can be small. It's not mutually exclusive
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#22 » by Onus » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:50 pm

I think the only argument Kobe has over Shaq would be career with a single franchise. Say if you were drafting knowing that Shaq would end up on 5 teams and win 4 titles with only 2 of those teams whereas if you draft Kobe you get 18 seasons and 5 titles.

Other than that I'm not sure Kobe has an argument
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#23 » by LakerLegend » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:02 am

Onus wrote:I think the only argument Kobe has over Shaq would be career with a single franchise. Say if you were drafting knowing that Shaq would end up on 5 teams and win 4 titles with only 2 of those teams whereas if you draft Kobe you get 18 seasons and 5 titles.

Other than that I'm not sure Kobe has an argument


Kobe has more rings, better longevity, better portability, and no glaring weakness like the FT's.

Kobe also has a higher ceiling to take control of games in the way he does when he just explodes for bunches of points in quick fashion like he does when he has those huge scoring binges.

Shaq will never do something like this where he scores over 40 in a half:

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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#24 » by InsanityKills » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:51 am

Don't compare a Top-7 All-time great to one thats in the 12-15 range (Kobe)
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#25 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:59 pm

Lakerfan17 wrote:
Onus wrote:I think the only argument Kobe has over Shaq would be career with a single franchise. Say if you were drafting knowing that Shaq would end up on 5 teams and win 4 titles with only 2 of those teams whereas if you draft Kobe you get 18 seasons and 5 titles.

Other than that I'm not sure Kobe has an argument


Kobe has more rings, better longevity, better portability, and no glaring weakness like the FT's.

Kobe also has a higher ceiling to take control of games in the way he does when he just explodes for bunches of points in quick fashion like he does when he has those huge scoring binges.

Shaq will never do something like this where he scores over 40 in a half:



I respectfully disagree. Shaq played 19 seasons, and Kobe 20. Shaq came into the league and was dominant from his 1st game. Kobe wasn't even starting in his first season. It took him 4 seasons to crack 20 ppg.

The single franchise thing- I HUGELY debate that argument. Do you remember how many times Kobe demanded trades when he didn't get his way? Or how he had the pen ready to sign with the Bulls until they traded Shaq? Or how he crippled the team by taking that ridiculous "legends" contract leaving the Lakers with no chance at winning? He may have played for the same franchise for his whole career, but he was hardly loyal to it. Oh, BTW. He was a Hornet before he was a Laker. He pretty much forced his way TO the Lakers before he dribbled a ball on a court. So the loyalty thing is not even a consideration for me.

Weaknesses- how about missing more shots than anyone in NBA history?

Higher ceiling to take control of a game- I'd call someone that can average 36 and 15 while anchoring a defense in the finals "taking control of a game".

As far as a game scoring 40 in a half- have you ever seen Kobe put up 25 pts, 28 boards, and 15 blocks in a game?
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#26 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:49 pm

SHAQ32 wrote:Picking Kobe is revisionist history

NBA fans from the early-mid 90's will tell you Shaq was better


Kobe didn't start playing till the mid to late 90's so of course they'd take shaq! :)
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#27 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:58 pm

The free throw shooting and how teams gamed that is a big big issue for me with shaq on these lists. For a guy THAT dominate to have just 1 MVP I think is telling as well, he missed so many games when he was at his apex. Shaq is on paper better, he was more dominate, but I can't get past his flaws. So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#28 » by RCM88x » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:51 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:The free throw shooting and how teams gamed that is a big big issue for me with shaq on these lists. For a guy THAT dominate to have just 1 MVP I think is telling as well, he missed so many games when he was at his apex. Shaq is on paper better, he was more dominate, but I can't get past his flaws. So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.


Kobe only has 1 MVP though too.

I'd take more dominant and 1 MVP over less dominant and 1 MVP any day.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#29 » by mdonnelly1989 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:35 pm

Dupp wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:Real GM is going to vote Shaq > Kobe by about a 80 to 20% split based on what I've seen.




If I change my vote youre exactly right.


But yeah shaq. Way better peak and underrated longevity.


OK apparently I know realgm to good! Haha I'm exactly right!
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#30 » by Jaivl » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:41 pm

andrewww wrote:A player 3 spots higher on the ATG list doesnt scream "hands down" better player. But we all know this forum's biases

Jordan and LeBron are separated 3 spots in the RealGM ATL. Poll one against the other: the results will be around the same.

andrewww wrote:and whom the vocal majority are. Nothing new to see here.

indeed :roll:
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#31 » by D.Brasco » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:51 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Real GM is going to vote Shaq > Kobe by about a 80 to 20% split based on what I've seen.


Good call my man

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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#32 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:40 pm

RCM88x wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:The free throw shooting and how teams gamed that is a big big issue for me with shaq on these lists. For a guy THAT dominate to have just 1 MVP I think is telling as well, he missed so many games when he was at his apex. Shaq is on paper better, he was more dominate, but I can't get past his flaws. So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.


Kobe only has 1 MVP though too.

I'd take more dominant and 1 MVP over less dominant and 1 MVP any day.


Let me step that back. I think Kobe's longevity is a bit better. It isn't by a HUGE margin and Kobe has crazy more awards that he deserved, but I think his overall resume looks longer and more polished. Now this gets tricky and it is why I said "So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.". Kobe at the 2 spot was positional a star defender much longer than shaq was. Kobe played at a more competitive spot in that era for the all nba teams, meaning I think some of shaq's all nba selections if the C was removed it was it was "front court" would have gone away. So when i make my adjustment, which I very very well could be wrong to do, I feel shaq needed more MVP's to showcase that he was "MDE" and for me to give him the edge.

Similarly, at shaq's best Duncan beat him out for the MVP twice. I know Duncan was listed as a 4, but come on...dude was playing the traditional center role just with another center on his team. That has always tainted my view of shaq's run as well.

I think it's a great debate each way and I've likely read it all on the two. I just struggle with a guy who's supposed to be so dominate not having more to show for his dominance and then the free throws...that just gives me too much pause. Now only a few players all time have a case for longevity against shaq, he sometimes gets undervalued for that. Kobe is however a guy I think had a small edge.

I also should add shaq had success on a lot of teams, but his best success came with 3 of the best guard peaks ever. I'm just such a huge fan of Penny at his best, Kobe (03 was wow level good), and Wade. So maybe I'm wrong and biased, I wasn't a huge shaq guy back when he was playing. I'm fine with that, but that's my 2 cents. Hopefully that explains my pause at moving him over Kobe, but again I don't feel like I'm right here. My gut just says I gotta go with Kobe.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#33 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:The free throw shooting and how teams gamed that is a big big issue for me with shaq on these lists. For a guy THAT dominate to have just 1 MVP I think is telling as well, he missed so many games when he was at his apex. Shaq is on paper better, he was more dominate, but I can't get past his flaws. So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.


Kobe only has 1 MVP though too.

I'd take more dominant and 1 MVP over less dominant and 1 MVP any day.


Let me step that back. I think Kobe's longevity is a bit better. It isn't by a HUGE margin and Kobe has crazy more awards that he deserved, but I think his overall resume looks longer and more polished. Now this gets tricky and it is why I said "So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.". Kobe at the 2 spot was positional a star defender much longer than shaq was. Kobe played at a more competitive spot in that era for the all nba teams, meaning I think some of shaq's all nba selections if the C was removed it was it was "front court" would have gone away. So when i make my adjustment, which I very very well could be wrong to do, I feel shaq needed more MVP's to showcase that he was "MDE" and for me to give him the edge.

Similarly, at shaq's best Duncan beat him out for the MVP twice. I know Duncan was listed as a 4, but come on...dude was playing the traditional center role just with another center on his team. That has always tainted my view of shaq's run as well.

I think it's a great debate each way and I've likely read it all on the two. I just struggle with a guy who's supposed to be so dominate not having more to show for his dominance and then the free throws...that just gives me too much pause. Now only a few players all time have a case for longevity against shaq, he sometimes gets undervalued for that. Kobe is however a guy I think had a small edge.

I also should add shaq had success on a lot of teams, but his best success came with 3 of the best guard peaks ever. I'm just such a huge fan of Penny at his best, Kobe (03 was wow level good), and Wade. So maybe I'm wrong and biased, I wasn't a huge shaq guy back when he was playing. I'm fine with that, but that's my 2 cents. Hopefully that explains my pause at moving him over Kobe, but again I don't feel like I'm right here. My gut just says I gotta go with Kobe.


I understand your statements, and I respect the opinions. But I would like to peacefully discuss why I disagree. First off, I don't consider the RS MVP to have too much value in this discussion- Steve Nash won as many as Kobe and Shaq combined as a 1 way player not averaging over 16 ppg one year. It's a popularity award. And as for TD winning over Shaq, well, Shaq won 3 FMVP's in a row, and since that means he won titles in those years, I'm pretty sure he'd rather those than RS MVP's. About TD being a center, well, he didn't guard Shaq when they went head to head, so I don't consider him a center. He always had a big playing the 5 at his side.

About his competition, Shaq has faced some of the best centers ever. From Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Zo, Deke. And the results were the same. He put up huge numbers more often than not. As a matter of fact, in the most important part of the season (playoffs and Finals), Shaq had to face players like Akeem in the finals (28, 12 on 60% from the field in his 3rd year), Drob for a few years, Deke in the Finals. Kobe had to face undersized guards (and 2nd and 3rd string defenders vs Spurs most of the time) and had to be switched off of the other team's best scorer (Iverson) in the finals. Shaq anchored the defense.

Free throws- I did a little analysis about that. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FT% amounted to a difference of 3,483 points. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FG% amounted to an 8,206 difference! So that is a net positive of 4,273 points in Shaq's favor! And he "hit them when they counted". I cannot recollect 1 game that was lost by Shaq missing FT's. I can, however remember the 2000 WCF where Kobe missed his FT's in the 4th after Shaq lead them from 15 down, and Shaq hitting his FT's down the stretch.

Shaq did have success with those guards, but I can also argue that after he left, their success suffered. After Shaq left the Magic, Penny couldn't keep up his level of play and eventually physically broke down. Kobe couldn't get TO the playoffs until he tried to force a trade and got some help. Wade still did well, but he didn't make a splash in the playoffs until he had LBJ at his side. So as much as Shaq benefited from those guys, they benefited moreso by having him in the paint.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#34 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:52 pm

jaypo wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Kobe only has 1 MVP though too.

I'd take more dominant and 1 MVP over less dominant and 1 MVP any day.


Let me step that back. I think Kobe's longevity is a bit better. It isn't by a HUGE margin and Kobe has crazy more awards that he deserved, but I think his overall resume looks longer and more polished. Now this gets tricky and it is why I said "So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.". Kobe at the 2 spot was positional a star defender much longer than shaq was. Kobe played at a more competitive spot in that era for the all nba teams, meaning I think some of shaq's all nba selections if the C was removed it was it was "front court" would have gone away. So when i make my adjustment, which I very very well could be wrong to do, I feel shaq needed more MVP's to showcase that he was "MDE" and for me to give him the edge.

Similarly, at shaq's best Duncan beat him out for the MVP twice. I know Duncan was listed as a 4, but come on...dude was playing the traditional center role just with another center on his team. That has always tainted my view of shaq's run as well.

I think it's a great debate each way and I've likely read it all on the two. I just struggle with a guy who's supposed to be so dominate not having more to show for his dominance and then the free throws...that just gives me too much pause. Now only a few players all time have a case for longevity against shaq, he sometimes gets undervalued for that. Kobe is however a guy I think had a small edge.

I also should add shaq had success on a lot of teams, but his best success came with 3 of the best guard peaks ever. I'm just such a huge fan of Penny at his best, Kobe (03 was wow level good), and Wade. So maybe I'm wrong and biased, I wasn't a huge shaq guy back when he was playing. I'm fine with that, but that's my 2 cents. Hopefully that explains my pause at moving him over Kobe, but again I don't feel like I'm right here. My gut just says I gotta go with Kobe.


I understand your statements, and I respect the opinions. But I would like to peacefully discuss why I disagree. First off, I don't consider the RS MVP to have too much value in this discussion- Steve Nash won as many as Kobe and Shaq combined as a 1 way player not averaging over 16 ppg one year. It's a popularity award. And as for TD winning over Shaq, well, Shaq won 3 FMVP's in a row, and since that means he won titles in those years, I'm pretty sure he'd rather those than RS MVP's. About TD being a center, well, he didn't guard Shaq when they went head to head, so I don't consider him a center. He always had a big playing the 5 at his side.

About his competition, Shaq has faced some of the best centers ever. From Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Zo, Deke. And the results were the same. He put up huge numbers more often than not. As a matter of fact, in the most important part of the season (playoffs and Finals), Shaq had to face players like Akeem in the finals (28, 12 on 60% from the field in his 3rd year), Drob for a few years, Deke in the Finals. Kobe had to face undersized guards (and 2nd and 3rd string defenders vs Spurs most of the time) and had to be switched off of the other team's best scorer (Iverson) in the finals. Shaq anchored the defense.

Free throws- I did a little analysis about that. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FT% amounted to a difference of 3,483 points. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FG% amounted to an 8,206 difference! So that is a net positive of 4,273 points in Shaq's favor! And he "hit them when they counted". I cannot recollect 1 game that was lost by Shaq missing FT's. I can, however remember the 2000 WCF where Kobe missed his FT's in the 4th after Shaq lead them from 15 down, and Shaq hitting his FT's down the stretch.

Shaq did have success with those guards, but I can also argue that after he left, their success suffered. After Shaq left the Magic, Penny couldn't keep up his level of play and eventually physically broke down. Kobe couldn't get TO the playoffs until he tried to force a trade and got some help. Wade still did well, but he didn't make a splash in the playoffs until he had LBJ at his side. So as much as Shaq benefited from those guys, they benefited moreso by having him in the paint.


I am sick of Nash won 2 MVP's. No I'm not someone who is so simple as to look at all of this in binary. Shaq during his absolute peak 00-02 was 3rd twice in voting. I think the MVP is sometimes iffy, but it is one of the few awards that historically they got right more than not. Nash won it in two years where honestly there wasn't a good candidate. But lets get more to the point.

Shaq finished top 2 3 times. He finished top 5 8 times. That isn't a top 10 resume in my mind. Bird who just finished behind Shaq on the voting here had 8 top 3's. Kobe 2 top 2's but 11 top 5's. For much of the era that shaq was seen as the most dominate player, he couldn't stay on the court enough to be seen as worth of winning the MVP or losing out to an all time great season by someone else. That's a concern when i rate a player. Sure his playoffs were insane, but how do I deal with his 60 game seasons during those runs?

The issue with free throw however does come in the playoffs where shaq would come out of games or be hidden. He wrecked the game (OK maybe Pop is to blame...he gets some of it) and was just a mess. There were some times in the playoffs that Shaq was off the floor because of it and I have to hold that against him. When teams see a part of your game as something so bad that they try and exploit it, that's a problem imo. I completely understand why people give him a pass.

Shaq playing against great centers is not my point. He was all NBA in many years that there weren't clear other center choices. 04-06 and 09 being the years I was referencing. Perhaps before that, but he was so great those years, I don't care.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#35 » by NZB2323 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:59 pm

Against the Pistons when both of them were in their prime and Shaq was shooting 60% from the field while Kobe was shooting 40% from the field and Kobe shot them out of the series. That series was just a microcosm for analyzing their careers- while Kobe is an all-time great, Shaq was a more efficient player.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#36 » by jaypo » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
jaypo wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Let me step that back. I think Kobe's longevity is a bit better. It isn't by a HUGE margin and Kobe has crazy more awards that he deserved, but I think his overall resume looks longer and more polished. Now this gets tricky and it is why I said "So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.". Kobe at the 2 spot was positional a star defender much longer than shaq was. Kobe played at a more competitive spot in that era for the all nba teams, meaning I think some of shaq's all nba selections if the C was removed it was it was "front court" would have gone away. So when i make my adjustment, which I very very well could be wrong to do, I feel shaq needed more MVP's to showcase that he was "MDE" and for me to give him the edge.

Similarly, at shaq's best Duncan beat him out for the MVP twice. I know Duncan was listed as a 4, but come on...dude was playing the traditional center role just with another center on his team. That has always tainted my view of shaq's run as well.

I think it's a great debate each way and I've likely read it all on the two. I just struggle with a guy who's supposed to be so dominate not having more to show for his dominance and then the free throws...that just gives me too much pause. Now only a few players all time have a case for longevity against shaq, he sometimes gets undervalued for that. Kobe is however a guy I think had a small edge.

I also should add shaq had success on a lot of teams, but his best success came with 3 of the best guard peaks ever. I'm just such a huge fan of Penny at his best, Kobe (03 was wow level good), and Wade. So maybe I'm wrong and biased, I wasn't a huge shaq guy back when he was playing. I'm fine with that, but that's my 2 cents. Hopefully that explains my pause at moving him over Kobe, but again I don't feel like I'm right here. My gut just says I gotta go with Kobe.


I understand your statements, and I respect the opinions. But I would like to peacefully discuss why I disagree. First off, I don't consider the RS MVP to have too much value in this discussion- Steve Nash won as many as Kobe and Shaq combined as a 1 way player not averaging over 16 ppg one year. It's a popularity award. And as for TD winning over Shaq, well, Shaq won 3 FMVP's in a row, and since that means he won titles in those years, I'm pretty sure he'd rather those than RS MVP's. About TD being a center, well, he didn't guard Shaq when they went head to head, so I don't consider him a center. He always had a big playing the 5 at his side.

About his competition, Shaq has faced some of the best centers ever. From Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Zo, Deke. And the results were the same. He put up huge numbers more often than not. As a matter of fact, in the most important part of the season (playoffs and Finals), Shaq had to face players like Akeem in the finals (28, 12 on 60% from the field in his 3rd year), Drob for a few years, Deke in the Finals. Kobe had to face undersized guards (and 2nd and 3rd string defenders vs Spurs most of the time) and had to be switched off of the other team's best scorer (Iverson) in the finals. Shaq anchored the defense.

Free throws- I did a little analysis about that. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FT% amounted to a difference of 3,483 points. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FG% amounted to an 8,206 difference! So that is a net positive of 4,273 points in Shaq's favor! And he "hit them when they counted". I cannot recollect 1 game that was lost by Shaq missing FT's. I can, however remember the 2000 WCF where Kobe missed his FT's in the 4th after Shaq lead them from 15 down, and Shaq hitting his FT's down the stretch.

Shaq did have success with those guards, but I can also argue that after he left, their success suffered. After Shaq left the Magic, Penny couldn't keep up his level of play and eventually physically broke down. Kobe couldn't get TO the playoffs until he tried to force a trade and got some help. Wade still did well, but he didn't make a splash in the playoffs until he had LBJ at his side. So as much as Shaq benefited from those guys, they benefited moreso by having him in the paint.


I am sick of Nash won 2 MVP's. No I'm not someone who is so simple as to look at all of this in binary. Shaq during his absolute peak 00-02 was 3rd twice in voting. I think the MVP is sometimes iffy, but it is one of the few awards that historically they got right more than not. Nash won it in two years where honestly there wasn't a good candidate. But lets get more to the point.

Shaq finished top 2 3 times. He finished top 5 8 times. That isn't a top 10 resume in my mind. Bird who just finished behind Shaq on the voting here had 8 top 3's. Kobe 2 top 2's but 11 top 5's. For much of the era that shaq was seen as the most dominate player, he couldn't stay on the court enough to be seen as worth of winning the MVP or losing out to an all time great season by someone else. That's a concern when i rate a player. Sure his playoffs were insane, but how do I deal with his 60 game seasons during those runs?

The issue with free throw however does come in the playoffs where shaq would come out of games or be hidden. He wrecked the game (OK maybe Pop is to blame...he gets some of it) and was just a mess. There were some times in the playoffs that Shaq was off the floor because of it and I have to hold that against him. When teams see a part of your game as something so bad that they try and exploit it, that's a problem imo. I completely understand why people give him a pass.

Shaq playing against great centers is not my point. He was all NBA in many years that there weren't clear other center choices. 04-06 and 09 being the years I was referencing. Perhaps before that, but he was so great those years, I don't care.


I'm starting to see your agenda here, but that's okay. Again, I don't rate MVP's as a way to show a player's dominance. Karl Malone won in a year that MJ should have! That award is a popularity award, and I feel the same way about ASGs. And many experts, coaches, analysts, etc. agree that the fact that Nash has as many MVP's as Shaq and Kobe combined is ridiculous! You seem to put more emphasis on the MVP award being the deciding factor on Shaq's "dominance". The MVP wasn't what made him put up ridiculous stats on supreme efficiency.

Your analysis of Shaq "wrecking games" is just incorrect. There were times that hack a Shaq was used. But very few actually worked. Again, I challenge you to show me where his FT's cost them a game/series. Next question- how far up do you have Wilt on your all time list? Because the answer to that question may negate your entire argument in this case! If you use FT% against Shaq but not against Wilt, your point is moot. Shaq's career FT% is higher than Wilt's.

All NBA- also a popularity contest. Most of the guys he faced, he bested head to head. Quick example- in 98-99, Zo Mourning was All NBA 1st team while Shaq was 2nd. Here are the numbers, and you tell me who was the better center:

26.3 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 58.4 from the field and 30.6 PER.
20.1 ppg, 11 rpg, 51.1% from the field, and a 24.6 PER.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#37 » by dhsilv2 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:54 pm

jaypo wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
jaypo wrote:
I understand your statements, and I respect the opinions. But I would like to peacefully discuss why I disagree. First off, I don't consider the RS MVP to have too much value in this discussion- Steve Nash won as many as Kobe and Shaq combined as a 1 way player not averaging over 16 ppg one year. It's a popularity award. And as for TD winning over Shaq, well, Shaq won 3 FMVP's in a row, and since that means he won titles in those years, I'm pretty sure he'd rather those than RS MVP's. About TD being a center, well, he didn't guard Shaq when they went head to head, so I don't consider him a center. He always had a big playing the 5 at his side.

About his competition, Shaq has faced some of the best centers ever. From Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Zo, Deke. And the results were the same. He put up huge numbers more often than not. As a matter of fact, in the most important part of the season (playoffs and Finals), Shaq had to face players like Akeem in the finals (28, 12 on 60% from the field in his 3rd year), Drob for a few years, Deke in the Finals. Kobe had to face undersized guards (and 2nd and 3rd string defenders vs Spurs most of the time) and had to be switched off of the other team's best scorer (Iverson) in the finals. Shaq anchored the defense.

Free throws- I did a little analysis about that. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FT% amounted to a difference of 3,483 points. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FG% amounted to an 8,206 difference! So that is a net positive of 4,273 points in Shaq's favor! And he "hit them when they counted". I cannot recollect 1 game that was lost by Shaq missing FT's. I can, however remember the 2000 WCF where Kobe missed his FT's in the 4th after Shaq lead them from 15 down, and Shaq hitting his FT's down the stretch.

Shaq did have success with those guards, but I can also argue that after he left, their success suffered. After Shaq left the Magic, Penny couldn't keep up his level of play and eventually physically broke down. Kobe couldn't get TO the playoffs until he tried to force a trade and got some help. Wade still did well, but he didn't make a splash in the playoffs until he had LBJ at his side. So as much as Shaq benefited from those guys, they benefited moreso by having him in the paint.


I am sick of Nash won 2 MVP's. No I'm not someone who is so simple as to look at all of this in binary. Shaq during his absolute peak 00-02 was 3rd twice in voting. I think the MVP is sometimes iffy, but it is one of the few awards that historically they got right more than not. Nash won it in two years where honestly there wasn't a good candidate. But lets get more to the point.

Shaq finished top 2 3 times. He finished top 5 8 times. That isn't a top 10 resume in my mind. Bird who just finished behind Shaq on the voting here had 8 top 3's. Kobe 2 top 2's but 11 top 5's. For much of the era that shaq was seen as the most dominate player, he couldn't stay on the court enough to be seen as worth of winning the MVP or losing out to an all time great season by someone else. That's a concern when i rate a player. Sure his playoffs were insane, but how do I deal with his 60 game seasons during those runs?

The issue with free throw however does come in the playoffs where shaq would come out of games or be hidden. He wrecked the game (OK maybe Pop is to blame...he gets some of it) and was just a mess. There were some times in the playoffs that Shaq was off the floor because of it and I have to hold that against him. When teams see a part of your game as something so bad that they try and exploit it, that's a problem imo. I completely understand why people give him a pass.

Shaq playing against great centers is not my point. He was all NBA in many years that there weren't clear other center choices. 04-06 and 09 being the years I was referencing. Perhaps before that, but he was so great those years, I don't care.


I'm starting to see your agenda here, but that's okay. Again, I don't rate MVP's as a way to show a player's dominance. Karl Malone won in a year that MJ should have! That award is a popularity award, and I feel the same way about ASGs. And many experts, coaches, analysts, etc. agree that the fact that Nash has as many MVP's as Shaq and Kobe combined is ridiculous! You seem to put more emphasis on the MVP award being the deciding factor on Shaq's "dominance". The MVP wasn't what made him put up ridiculous stats on supreme efficiency.

Your analysis of Shaq "wrecking games" is just incorrect. There were times that hack a Shaq was used. But very few actually worked. Again, I challenge you to show me where his FT's cost them a game/series. Next question- how far up do you have Wilt on your all time list? Because the answer to that question may negate your entire argument in this case! If you use FT% against Shaq but not against Wilt, your point is moot. Shaq's career FT% is higher than Wilt's.

All NBA- also a popularity contest. Most of the guys he faced, he bested head to head. Quick example- in 98-99, Zo Mourning was All NBA 1st team while Shaq was 2nd. Here are the numbers, and you tell me who was the better center:

26.3 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 58.4 from the field and 30.6 PER.
20.1 ppg, 11 rpg, 51.1% from the field, and a 24.6 PER.


"Agenda" :(

I value the "MVP" share fairly highly. Much more so than the award itself, but when shaq is called the MOST DOMINATE EVER, I'd expect more than 1MVP. I disagree that the MVP is "just" a popularity award. I'll ask you this, how many MVP's went to a player not having a top 3 season? I make the same point with all nba. I never differentiated first team or 3rd team. That was intentional.

Wilt I have a very hard time with because he played in a center dominated league with 8 teams (to start). I tend to rank him around 8th. As a rule I have a grouping that I think is a step up.

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Lebron. I believe Russel has to be over Wilt (opinion of the time and I have a lack of videos to watch for either in all honesty) but those two I would see in that mix but likely after those players an era bias is a big driver. After that group it gets really contested with players I find more faults with from legacy and then just my own biases. If you look at that 8 though, they all have multiple MVP's and titles, so maybe I do rank those popularity contests more than others.

The difference with wilt and shaq is that hack a shaq came from him and I hold that against him. Mind you I have kobe and shaq along with a few others in the debate for 8-15. I'd hardly say I'm way off even based for all but the most hardcore fans of the two.

Now if you want an agenda, I'll fully disclose I didn't like Shaq or Kobe as players. They were heels to me I rooted against and pretty equally, though I disliked Kobe more gun to head. Not sure if that matters, but since you're using the nasty A word, I thought I'd disclose it. I still admit my argument for Kobe over shaq isn't a good one, it's just something I can't get past.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#38 » by Ballerhogger » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:33 am

I got shaq , his early finals run and goat peak 3 peat years puts him over kobe. I have shaq 7th.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#39 » by eminence » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:53 am

Went Shaq here, I have him in my 6-9 range, Kobe in the 10-15 grouping.
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Re: Kobe or Shaq All Time 

Post#40 » by mdonnelly1989 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:37 am

eminence wrote:Went Shaq here, I have him in my 6-9 range, Kobe in the 10-15 grouping.


I'm almost positive you most of Realgm has him from the 6 - 9 range probably closer to though if I had to guess.

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