dhsilv2 wrote:RCM88x wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:The free throw shooting and how teams gamed that is a big big issue for me with shaq on these lists. For a guy THAT dominate to have just 1 MVP I think is telling as well, he missed so many games when he was at his apex. Shaq is on paper better, he was more dominate, but I can't get past his flaws. So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.
Kobe only has 1 MVP though too.
I'd take more dominant and 1 MVP over less dominant and 1 MVP any day.
Let me step that back. I think Kobe's longevity is a bit better. It isn't by a HUGE margin and Kobe has crazy more awards that he deserved, but I think his overall resume looks longer and more polished. Now this gets tricky and it is why I said "So I'd take Kobe, but I don't feel good about it or feel like I'm right.". Kobe at the 2 spot was positional a star defender much longer than shaq was. Kobe played at a more competitive spot in that era for the all nba teams, meaning I think some of shaq's all nba selections if the C was removed it was it was "front court" would have gone away. So when i make my adjustment, which I very very well could be wrong to do, I feel shaq needed more MVP's to showcase that he was "MDE" and for me to give him the edge.
Similarly, at shaq's best Duncan beat him out for the MVP twice. I know Duncan was listed as a 4, but come on...dude was playing the traditional center role just with another center on his team. That has always tainted my view of shaq's run as well.
I think it's a great debate each way and I've likely read it all on the two. I just struggle with a guy who's supposed to be so dominate not having more to show for his dominance and then the free throws...that just gives me too much pause. Now only a few players all time have a case for longevity against shaq, he sometimes gets undervalued for that. Kobe is however a guy I think had a small edge.
I also should add shaq had success on a lot of teams, but his best success came with 3 of the best guard peaks ever. I'm just such a huge fan of Penny at his best, Kobe (03 was wow level good), and Wade. So maybe I'm wrong and biased, I wasn't a huge shaq guy back when he was playing. I'm fine with that, but that's my 2 cents. Hopefully that explains my pause at moving him over Kobe, but again I don't feel like I'm right here. My gut just says I gotta go with Kobe.
I understand your statements, and I respect the opinions. But I would like to peacefully discuss why I disagree. First off, I don't consider the RS MVP to have too much value in this discussion- Steve Nash won as many as Kobe and Shaq combined as a 1 way player not averaging over 16 ppg one year. It's a popularity award. And as for TD winning over Shaq, well, Shaq won 3 FMVP's in a row, and since that means he won titles in those years, I'm pretty sure he'd rather those than RS MVP's. About TD being a center, well, he didn't guard Shaq when they went head to head, so I don't consider him a center. He always had a big playing the 5 at his side.
About his competition, Shaq has faced some of the best centers ever. From Ewing, DRob, Akeem, Zo, Deke. And the results were the same. He put up huge numbers more often than not. As a matter of fact, in the most important part of the season (playoffs and Finals), Shaq had to face players like Akeem in the finals (28, 12 on 60% from the field in his 3rd year), Drob for a few years, Deke in the Finals. Kobe had to face undersized guards (and 2nd and 3rd string defenders vs Spurs most of the time) and had to be switched off of the other team's best scorer (Iverson) in the finals. Shaq anchored the defense.
Free throws- I did a little analysis about that. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FT% amounted to a difference of 3,483 points. The difference between Kobe and Shaq's FG% amounted to an 8,206 difference! So that is a net positive of 4,273 points in Shaq's favor! And he "hit them when they counted". I cannot recollect 1 game that was lost by Shaq missing FT's. I can, however remember the 2000 WCF where Kobe missed his FT's in the 4th after Shaq lead them from 15 down, and Shaq hitting his FT's down the stretch.
Shaq did have success with those guards, but I can also argue that after he left, their success suffered. After Shaq left the Magic, Penny couldn't keep up his level of play and eventually physically broke down. Kobe couldn't get TO the playoffs until he tried to force a trade and got some help. Wade still did well, but he didn't make a splash in the playoffs until he had LBJ at his side. So as much as Shaq benefited from those guys, they benefited moreso by having him in the paint.