Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler

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Better player right now.

Jimmy Butler
47
69%
Draymond Green
21
31%
 
Total votes: 68

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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#21 » by rebirthoftheM » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:15 pm

thekdog34 wrote:It's close, but I say Draymond. Arguably best defender in the league and pretty good offensively too.

Only lacks volume scoring.

Only volume scoring? How are his handles off the dribble? How is he going left and right? How does he preform with the ball in his hands under defensive duress? How is he as a catch and shooter? How is he as a finisher at the rim against rim protection? How well can he create for himself and teammates being the center of attention? How would this play out on a non stacked team with non-goat like spacing?

Draymond is quite literally the only superstar (lol) of all time who is considered an after thought by defenses and is given open shots all the time.

No serious GM would ever exchange Jimmy for Draymond and consider it an equal trade. Draymond is the type of dude you want after you have your superstar (s) in place.

Only lacks volume scoring applies to Kevin Garnett. And draymond is no KG.

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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#22 » by eminence » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:04 pm

Give me Draymond, he's the type of guy you can build a defense around and a great complimentary piece on offense. Butler is a solid defender and third tier offensive alpha. Maybe on a better team he can be a great complimentary piece on offense too, but then he's at best slightly more useful than Dray on offense while being nowhere close to the same level defender. The leadership gap between the two also appears to be titanic.
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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#23 » by thekdog34 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:08 am

rebirthoftheM wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:It's close, but I say Draymond. Arguably best defender in the league and pretty good offensively too.

Only lacks volume scoring.

Only volume scoring? How are his handles off the dribble? How is he going left and right? How does he preform with the ball in his hands under defensive duress? How is he as a catch and shooter? How is he as a finisher at the rim against rim protection? How well can he create for himself and teammates being the center of attention? How would this play out on a non stacked team with non-goat like spacing?

Draymond is quite literally the only superstar (lol) of all time who is considered an after thought by defenses and is given open shots all the time.

No serious GM would ever exchange Jimmy for Draymond and consider it an equal trade. Draymond is the type of dude you want after you have your superstar (s) in place.

Only lacks volume scoring applies to Kevin Garnett. And draymond is no KG.

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Well for one thing, he is a PF/C so it isn't necessarily a big deal that he doesn't have great handles.

He has averaged 7+ assists and has shot ok from 3 (33% career). He averaged 14 ppg on decent efficiency last year. He's not Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Impactwise he has been a positive. Yes orpm is flawed, but his was higher than Millsap last year. Combine that with being the best defender in the league, which is half the game, then I think he has a good case.
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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#24 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:45 am

thekdog34 wrote:
Well for one thing, he is a PF/C so it isn't necessarily a big deal that he doesn't have great handles.

He has averaged 7+ assists and has shot ok from 3 (33% career). He averaged 14 ppg on decent efficiency last year. He's not Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Impactwise he has been a positive. Yes orpm is flawed, but his was higher than Millsap last year. Combine that with being the best defender in the league, which is half the game, then I think he has a good case.


I do agree with your statement partially. I don't think he needs any of those things on the stacked Warriors.

But you said he only lacked volume scoring. That is not true at all. His post game isn't great (ala the traditional big), doesn't have the skill-set of a hybrid big (ala KG) nor is he an elite shooter and spacer (ala Dirk Nowitzki). His skill-set has major holes but its weaknesses are hidden with the Warriors.

On another team as a #1, where he would be expected to anchor an offense, his skill set would not cut it as an elite franchise player IMO. I don't think the Bulls would have been nearly as good if Draymond was dealt for Jimmy Butler. Draymond would have to shift his energies more towards offense and creation for himself+ teammates, which would lead to in the long run, a deterioration in the impactful play he is able to produce on the Warriors because of Curry/Klay etc. He is not in the Kevin Garnett category whose impact was profound in every team situation, including as a #1. No longer would 3 Pfs a game in 32 MPG, reflective of a mentality of "not really a big deal if I get into foul trouble because I have Curry/Klay/Durant to hold the fort down" which facilitates his epic defense, cut it. Defenses would start to key in on him, and that's where his skill-set stuff would be exposed.

Now I know to some, Draymond's hypothetical success as a #1 doesn't matter. But it does to many, hence why Jimmy Butler is winning this poll out-right. And I think if you ask most GMs, they'd say the same thing too.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#25 » by LikeABosh » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:41 am

Butler. I don't know why these threads keep popping up. Dray is great when you plug him in with other stars, but I'm not exactly sure what you should expect from him with his own team. He'd never be able to carry the offensive load for any team that wants to make it out of the lottery
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#26 » by Trophy13781 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:05 am

Butler by far. RAPM is a worthless stat and nobody uses it outside of a few people on this site. Nobody else (like the rest of the 99% of the basketball-viewing world) even knows what the hell the stat is. :lol:
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#27 » by bondom34 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:11 am

Read: I don't understand it so it's useless. (insert emoji)
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#28 » by bondom34 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:12 am

But Butler, he was better last year to me.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#29 » by Rerisen » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:42 am

As long as one isn't going with a title or bust team approach, I think Butler is going to help most teams more.

Though talking great teams only, where neither guy is going to be the best player, can certainly see an argument that Draymond fits better.

From watching Butler the last 2 years, I tend to think the talent around him was quite dreadful, like worse even than what Paul George had to work with in Indy, and so its not fair to blame him for say, not getting his team out of the first round. But with him switching teams it should be a great way to better test his value.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#30 » by Dominator83 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:53 am

Butler. Draymond has a great skill set as well, but as mentioned, put him on last year's Bulls team in place of Butler and his flaws would be so much more exposed
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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#31 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:25 pm

thekdog34 wrote:He has averaged 7+ assists and has shot ok from 3 (33% career). He averaged 14 ppg on decent efficiency last year. He's not Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Draymond put up 10.2 ppg on .522% TS while being virtually unguarded last season. 9.0 on .531 for his career. He has one outlier shooting/scoring season in 2016
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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#32 » by thekdog34 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:58 pm

RonySeikalyFTW wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:He has averaged 7+ assists and has shot ok from 3 (33% career). He averaged 14 ppg on decent efficiency last year. He's not Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Draymond put up 10.2 ppg on .522% TS while being virtually unguarded last season. 9.0 on .531 for his career. He has one outlier shooting/scoring season in 2016


At the same time he was the fourth option. He didn't exactly have a high usage. He took fewer shots than he did two years ago.

Durant ended up single covered so he took the shots.

If you put him in a situation with more responsibility I think he looks more like the previous two years.
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Re: RE: Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#33 » by thekdog34 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:00 pm

rebirthoftheM wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:
Well for one thing, he is a PF/C so it isn't necessarily a big deal that he doesn't have great handles.

He has averaged 7+ assists and has shot ok from 3 (33% career). He averaged 14 ppg on decent efficiency last year. He's not Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman.

Impactwise he has been a positive. Yes orpm is flawed, but his was higher than Millsap last year. Combine that with being the best defender in the league, which is half the game, then I think he has a good case.


I do agree with your statement partially. I don't think he needs any of those things on the stacked Warriors.

But you said he only lacked volume scoring. That is not true at all. His post game isn't great (ala the traditional big), doesn't have the skill-set of a hybrid big (ala KG) nor is he an elite shooter and spacer (ala Dirk Nowitzki). His skill-set has major holes but its weaknesses are hidden with the Warriors.

On another team as a #1, where he would be expected to anchor an offense, his skill set would not cut it as an elite franchise player IMO. I don't think the Bulls would have been nearly as good if Draymond was dealt for Jimmy Butler. Draymond would have to shift his energies more towards offense and creation for himself+ teammates, which would lead to in the long run, a deterioration in the impactful play he is able to produce on the Warriors because of Curry/Klay etc. He is not in the Kevin Garnett category whose impact was profound in every team situation, including as a #1. No longer would 3 Pfs a game in 32 MPG, reflective of a mentality of "not really a big deal if I get into foul trouble because I have Curry/Klay/Durant to hold the fort down" which facilitates his epic defense, cut it. Defenses would start to key in on him, and that's where his skill-set stuff would be exposed.

Now I know to some, Draymond's hypothetical success as a #1 doesn't matter. But it does to many, hence why Jimmy Butler is winning this poll out-right. And I think if you ask most GMs, they'd say the same thing too.


Those are fair points, but Butler is no #1 offensive option either. He is not super efficient and not a great playmaker.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#34 » by TPV » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:21 pm

This one is tough, as they're both great and you can make the case for either I think. My gut instinct was telling me Draymond, but when comparing raw stats Butler clearly comes out ahead.

2016-2017 Jimmy Butler - Draymond Green comparison on BBRef

I don't believe that Draymond would come close to Butler's scoring if given the same volume in a similar situation. Butler is no slouch as a defender either.

I still have to go with Draymond. His ability to defend and make a team's defense better is something that can translate to any team. His ability to shoot, pass, and drive as a 4/5 gives a team so many opportunities. Overall, I think Draymond makes his teammates better on offense and defense that would translate outside of the Warriors, and it would be more impactful than what Butler brings as a scorer/playmaker/defender.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#35 » by Trophy13781 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:29 pm

If you took Draymond Green off the Warriors they would still be the best team in the NBA and win the title with ease.

This isn't a knock on Draymond, who is a fine player and a deserving DPOY....but rather a testament to how historically stacked and superior to their competition the Warriors are.

There has never been a team that had two of the top 3 players in the league that wasn't the best team in the league....and that's exactly what the Warriors would still have minus Draymond with Curry/Durant....plus Klay and some insane depth.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#36 » by thekdog34 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:03 pm

Trophy13781 wrote:If you took Draymond Green off the Warriors they would still be the best team in the NBA and win the title with ease.

This isn't a knock on Draymond, who is a fine player and a deserving DPOY....but rather a testament to how historically stacked and superior to their competition the Warriors are.

There has never been a team that had two of the top 3 players in the league that wasn't the best team in the league....and that's exactly what the Warriors would still have minus Draymond with Curry/Durant....plus Klay and some insane depth.


This is only true because they added Durant. Prior two years, making the finals and will winning once, there absolutely needed Draymond.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#37 » by Trophy13781 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:51 pm

thekdog34 wrote:
Trophy13781 wrote:If you took Draymond Green off the Warriors they would still be the best team in the NBA and win the title with ease.

This isn't a knock on Draymond, who is a fine player and a deserving DPOY....but rather a testament to how historically stacked and superior to their competition the Warriors are.

There has never been a team that had two of the top 3 players in the league that wasn't the best team in the league....and that's exactly what the Warriors would still have minus Draymond with Curry/Durant....plus Klay and some insane depth.


This is only true because they added Durant. Prior two years, making the finals and will winning once, there absolutely needed Draymond.

Yes of course.... and it also speaks to how much better Durant is than Draymond as well. Some were ridiculously arguing that Draymond is more important to the Warriors than Durant. :crazy:

Just because he ranks higher in RAPM doesn't make him as important or more important to the Warriors success than Durant. If you told that to scouts, GMs and basketball experts all over the world, they would laugh in your face. RealGM statisticians and RAPM supporters are not the only ones who watch loads of basketball, and they certainly aren't more qualified to judge talent than GMs and scouts......none of whom would argue that Draymond is anything but vastly inferior to Durant.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#38 » by thekdog34 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:05 am

Trophy13781 wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:
Trophy13781 wrote:If you took Draymond Green off the Warriors they would still be the best team in the NBA and win the title with ease.

This isn't a knock on Draymond, who is a fine player and a deserving DPOY....but rather a testament to how historically stacked and superior to their competition the Warriors are.

There has never been a team that had two of the top 3 players in the league that wasn't the best team in the league....and that's exactly what the Warriors would still have minus Draymond with Curry/Durant....plus Klay and some insane depth.


This is only true because they added Durant. Prior two years, making the finals and will winning once, there absolutely needed Draymond.

Yes of course.... and it also speaks to how much better Durant is than Draymond as well. Some were ridiculously arguing that Draymond is more important to the Warriors than Durant. :crazy:

Just because he ranks higher in RAPM doesn't make him as important or more important to the Warriors success than Durant. If you told that to scouts, GMs and basketball experts all over the world, they would laugh in your face. RealGM statisticians and RAPM supporters are not the only ones who watch loads of basketball, and they certainly aren't more qualified to judge talent than GMs and scouts......none of whom would argue that Draymond is anything but vastly inferior to Durant.


How does it speak to Durant being better?

You could use the exact argument you used against Draymond. Take Durant off the team and the warriors probably still win the championship.

It's arguable Green is more important because their defense would drop off badly without him. He's also a far better passer than Durant. and rebounder too of course
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#39 » by Trophy13781 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:43 am

thekdog34 wrote:
Trophy13781 wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:
This is only true because they added Durant. Prior two years, making the finals and will winning once, there absolutely needed Draymond.

Yes of course.... and it also speaks to how much better Durant is than Draymond as well. Some were ridiculously arguing that Draymond is more important to the Warriors than Durant. :crazy:

Just because he ranks higher in RAPM doesn't make him as important or more important to the Warriors success than Durant. If you told that to scouts, GMs and basketball experts all over the world, they would laugh in your face. RealGM statisticians and RAPM supporters are not the only ones who watch loads of basketball, and they certainly aren't more qualified to judge talent than GMs and scouts......none of whom would argue that Draymond is anything but vastly inferior to Durant.


How does it speak to Durant being better?

You could use the exact argument you used against Draymond. Take Durant off the team and the warriors probably still win the championship.

It's arguable Green is more important because their defense would drop off badly without him. He's also a far better passer than Durant. and rebounder too of course

:crazy:

How is this? Green stinks compared to Durant as a player. Durant is consensus top 2-3 and Green isn't even close to that. He is perhaps top 20 at best in the Warriors system.... and if he played for any other team like Charlotte, New York, Brooklyn etc it's hard to see him cracking the top 50.

Durant was the one who had the legendary Finals performance, not Green. And last year they had Green and choked away a 3-1 lead in the Finals, and also almost lost to a 55-win team if not for a legendary 3-point eruption from Klay Thompson in Game 6 against OKC.

The year before that they had Green and yes, they won it all, but they got taken to 6 hard fought games against a team missing two of its top 3 players. It's hard to say what they would've done if Cleveland was healthy.

But now they add Durant.... and they become the most indestructible team in league history going on the greatest playoff run of all-time. Pretty clear whose impact was bigger.

Saying Green is more important than Durant is like saying Dennis Rodman is more important than Michael Jordan or Hakeem Olajuwon.
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Re: Better Player: Draymond Green or Jimmy Butler 

Post#40 » by thekdog34 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:21 am

Trophy13781 wrote:
thekdog34 wrote:
Trophy13781 wrote:Yes of course.... and it also speaks to how much better Durant is than Draymond as well. Some were ridiculously arguing that Draymond is more important to the Warriors than Durant. :crazy:

Just because he ranks higher in RAPM doesn't make him as important or more important to the Warriors success than Durant. If you told that to scouts, GMs and basketball experts all over the world, they would laugh in your face. RealGM statisticians and RAPM supporters are not the only ones who watch loads of basketball, and they certainly aren't more qualified to judge talent than GMs and scouts......none of whom would argue that Draymond is anything but vastly inferior to Durant.


How does it speak to Durant being better?

You could use the exact argument you used against Draymond. Take Durant off the team and the warriors probably still win the championship.

It's arguable Green is more important because their defense would drop off badly without him. He's also a far better passer than Durant. and rebounder too of course

:crazy:

How is this? Green stinks compared to Durant as a player. Durant is consensus top 2-3 and Green isn't even close to that. He is perhaps top 20 at best in the Warriors system.... and if he played for any other team like Charlotte, New York, Brooklyn etc it's hard to see him cracking the top 50.

Durant was the one who had the legendary Finals performance, not Green. And last year they had Green and choked away a 3-1 lead in the Finals, and also almost lost to a 55-win team if not for a legendary 3-point eruption from Klay Thompson in Game 6 against OKC.

The year before that they had Green and yes, they won it all, but they got taken to 6 hard fought games against a team missing two of its top 3 players. It's hard to say what they would've done if Cleveland was healthy.

But now they add Durant.... and they become the most indestructible team in league history going on the greatest playoff run of all-time. Pretty clear whose impact was bigger.

Saying Green is more important than Durant is like saying Dennis Rodman is more important than Michael Jordan or Hakeem Olajuwon.


Yes they are one of the best team in history....with green on it.

You keep acting as if Durant is the sole reason they are so good, even though they had already had a 70+ win season, two finals appearances and a ring.

Your argument only makes sense if Durant replaced Green and made them that much better.

In truth he was more like injury insurance. Greens impact numbers were better. He was the defensive player of the year on top of being a better passer than Durant.

But anyways this is Green vs Butler not Durant. And Greens defense > Butler's offense imo

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