Player of The Decade?

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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#141 » by sp6r=underrated » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:12 pm

Ball Boy wrote:Between 00-05 Kobe was a huge part of the Lakers winning the Western Conference (You know, the same conference Duncan's in) 4 of the 6yrs. Thats why Duncan can be said to only have a slight advantage. (Duncan was in the Top 5 MVP all 6yrs, Kobe made it 3 times)


You cannot IGNORE THE FACT THAT KOBE BRYANT WAS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON HIS TEAM.

Here were their numbers in the playoffs from 2000-2005.

Code: Select all

       PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG, TS%
Duncan: 24.3, 13.7, 4.0, 2.8, 0.6, .549
Kobe:   26.0, 5.4,  5.1, 0.8, 1.5, .522


Duncan was a much better player in the post-season during those years. He just didn't have the privilege of playing with a guy who was tossing up (00-04)

Shaq: 27.5, 14.2, 3.0, 2.6, 0.5, .564

If Duncan during those years got to play with a guard as good as prime Shaq, (Example Magic Johnson). He would won the championship every year in much more dominating fashion than those lakers did.

Share of the MVP vote during those years
Duncan: 2.921
Kobe: 0.678
Gap: 2.243



Ball Boy wrote:However, between 06-10, Kobe was in the Top 5 MVP all 4 years, Duncan only made it once. There is no question Kobe has been the better player by quite a large margin for 4-5yrs now.


Share of the MVP since 2006
Kobe: 2.244
Duncan: .27
Gap: 1.974

Kobe was the better player in 06 (due to Duncan's injuries but Duncan was much better in the post-season) and clearly from 08-10, but Duncan still turned in a better season in 07.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#142 » by gswhoopsman » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:17 pm

D Nice wrote:As for the numbers/MVP arguments...do you guys ACTUALLY believe that Kobe's numbers didn't suffer because of Shaq? All of the people claiming Shaq "opened up" things for Kobe obviously rarely watched Laker games back then. While once in a while Shaq's man would stay glued to him and leave a clear path for Kobe, more often than not Shaq was in the way, clogging the lane AND taking touches away from Kobe. A juxtaposition of Kobe's scoring numbers with/without Shaq, as well as the entire 03 campaign should be sufficient evidence.


This may be true, but it's also true that Kobe wouldn't even be in this discussion if not for Shaq.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#143 » by Bgil » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:21 pm

True, but Shaq wouldn't be in this conversation if not for Kobe. Without Kobe's clutchness and on-ball defense the Lakers would have been pick and rolled out of the playoffs every year. Let's not forget about getting swept by the Jazz two years in a row or making Troy Hudson, Tony Parker, and Mike Bibby household names.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#144 » by andrewww » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:21 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:Between 00-05 Kobe was a huge part of the Lakers winning the Western Conference (You know, the same conference Duncan's in) 4 of the 6yrs. Thats why Duncan can be said to only have a slight advantage. (Duncan was in the Top 5 MVP all 6yrs, Kobe made it 3 times)


You cannot IGNORE THE FACT THAT KOBE BRYANT WAS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON HIS TEAM.

Here were their numbers in the playoffs from 2000-2005.

Code: Select all

       PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG, TS%
Duncan: 24.3, 13.7, 4.0, 2.8, 0.6, .549
Kobe:   26.0, 5.4,  5.1, 0.8, 1.5, .522


Duncan was a much better player in the post-season during those years. He just didn't have the privilege of playing with a guy who was tossing up (00-04)

Shaq: 27.5, 14.2, 3.0, 2.6, 0.5, .564

If Duncan during those years got to play with a guard as good as prime Shaq, (Example Magic Johnson). He would won the championship every year in much more dominating fashion than those lakers did.

Share of the MVP vote during those years
Duncan: 2.921
Kobe: 0.678
Gap: 2.243



Ball Boy wrote:However, between 06-10, Kobe was in the Top 5 MVP all 4 years, Duncan only made it once. There is no question Kobe has been the better player by quite a large margin for 4-5yrs now.


Share of the MVP since 2006
Kobe: 2.244
Duncan: .27
Gap: 1.974

Kobe was the better player in 06 (due to Duncan's injuries but Duncan was much better in the post-season) and clearly from 08-10, but Duncan still turned in a better season in 07.


i think we need to ignore the fact that you discount kobe at all costs. you dont even have to agree with posters that he is the POTD, but anyone saying kobe or duncan is a clearcut POTD is just plain hating.

i believe kobe is the POTD but it's not clear cut for sure, nor is it clear cut for those who think duncan is the POTD. there is certainly debate here.

kobe 2nd best player on this team? for those who use that argument against him, if you consider magic johnson one of the GOAT he wasn't even the focal point on 2 of the 5 laker championships in the 80s. the double standard some haters will use is astounding. im done looking at your posts.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#145 » by D Nice » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:21 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Ball Boy wrote:Between 00-05 Kobe was a huge part of the Lakers winning the Western Conference (You know, the same conference Duncan's in) 4 of the 6yrs. Thats why Duncan can be said to only have a slight advantage. (Duncan was in the Top 5 MVP all 6yrs, Kobe made it 3 times)


You cannot IGNORE THE FACT THAT KOBE BRYANT WAS THE SECOND BEST PLAYER ON HIS TEAM.

Here were their numbers in the playoffs from 2000-2005.

Code: Select all

       PPG, RPG, APG, BPG, SPG, TS%
Duncan: 24.3, 13.7, 4.0, 2.8, 0.6, .549
Kobe:   26.0, 5.4,  5.1, 0.8, 1.5, .522


Duncan was a much better player in the post-season during those years. He just didn't have the privilege of playing with a guy who was tossing up (00-04)

Shaq: 27.5, 14.2, 3.0, 2.6, 0.5, .564

If Duncan during those years got to play with a guard as good as prime Shaq, (Example Magic Johnson). He would won the championship every year in much more dominating fashion than those lakers did.

Share of the MVP vote during those years
Duncan: 2.921
Kobe: 0.678
Gap: 2.243



Ball Boy wrote:However, between 06-10, Kobe was in the Top 5 MVP all 4 years, Duncan only made it once. There is no question Kobe has been the better player by quite a large margin for 4-5yrs now.


Share of the MVP since 2006
Kobe: 2.244
Duncan: .27
Gap: 1.974

Kobe was the better player in 06 (due to Duncan's injuries but Duncan was much better in the post-season) and clearly from 08-10, but Duncan still turned in a better season in 07.
I declare Shenanigans on this post.

1, because MVP share is utter crap, particularly when you're the ONLY one playing alongside another major candidate.

2, because Kobe may have been playing with Shaq, but he was also playing with one of the worst supporting casts of any great team in NBA history. Run down the Lakers 3-9 rotation between 00-05, and compare it to that of other good teams (Sac, Dallas, SA, Indy, etc). It's paltry. Kobe and Shaq were BOTH just that good.

3, because playing alongside good players doesn't neccessarily boost the production of agreat player. See Duncan before/after Parker/Ginobili hit their prime. Kobe's production was what it was because he was carving up one of the great defenses of this decade, simple as that. His play didn't suffer one bit when Shaq was off the court against SA, in fact if often spurred on his better stretches of play.

4, because there is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY UNCIRCUMSTANTIALLY NO WAY IN HELL Tim Duncan was a better player than Kobe Bryant in 2007. NONE. Kobe was posting 32/6/5 with a TS% of .580, and coupled it with good, albeit inconsistent defense (which shold have garnered Kobe should have his second straight MVP.) At first I thought that was a typo in your post, but I re-read it and apparently you were serious.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#146 » by mysticbb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:23 pm

D Nice wrote:Perhaps that was a misuse of words though. The difference wasn't meant to be porytayed as such. If the gap between Duncan and Kobe was a 3/10 in the first stretch, it'd be a 4/10 in the opposite direction for the second stretch.


No, you only see it like this, because you can't remember how dominant Duncan was in comparison to Bryant at the start of the decade. That is pretty obvious due to your comment about Shaquille O'Neal.

O'Neal was All NBA 1st in the last decade 7 times! Bryant has the same amount of All NBA 1st appearances. O'Neal has 8 All NBA awards, he got those in 80% of the possible years. Some people have James ahead of him despite the fact that James hasn't even played in as many years as Shaq has All NBA 1st team honors.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... der_by=per

http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=158

Duncan beats Bryant in every advanced metric over the last decade in either regular season or playoffs. Honestly, there are no statistical evidences that Bryant was better during the last 10 years than Tim Duncan. Duncan has more MVP awards, more Finals MVPs, one title less. The overall resume is Duncan is the player of the decade.

What is the argument for Bryant? 6 times in the finals? He was a non-factor in the 2000 finals, he was close to the worst player on the court in 2004, he choked badly in 2008, in 5 of his 6 finals appearances Bryant scored less effizient than his teammates, 5 out of 6 times Bryant underperformed in the finals! How can that be an argument? Bryant played really well in some of the playoff series, but that was also due to the fact that the other team worried more about Shaquille O'Neal than anyone else on the Lakers. From 2003 to 2009, in 7 years, Bryant never got the most votes for either MVP or the player the GM would choose first to start a franchise in the GM Survey. It was either Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan or LeBron James. In some of those years Bryant didn't even get a single vote for those categories.

Someone wrote a very important thing about that, Bryant is more popular, he has just so many crazy fans. They will argue that Bryant is the best shooter in the league, the best passer, the best at everything and everyone who argues against that is always just a hater.

Bryant is great and there are a good amount of arguments for him to be in the discussion about the best player for the last 10 years, but there is just a player with better arguments.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#147 » by NYK 455 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:29 pm

Kobe Bryant was not the best player on the Laker threepeat. Of course he was important, he was the second option, but he wasn't the man. Those rings don't hold the same value as Duncan or Shaqs rings. He's only got one ring as the man, that isn't enough to put him in the same category as Duncan and Shaq, who were more dominant and led their teams to more success. It's like arguing Pippen over Hakeem in the 90s because he had more rings.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#148 » by Bgil » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:31 pm

D Nice wrote:
2, because Kobe may have been playing with Shaq, but he was also playing with one of the worst supporting casts of any great team in NBA history. Run down the Lakers 3-9 rotation between 00-05, and compare it to that of other good teams (Sac, Dallas, SA, Indy, etc). It's paltry. Kobe and Shaq were BOTH just that good.


THANK YOU! Outside of Shaq and Kobe those teams were horrid. Most of those guys (FIsher, Fox, Slava, George etc.) were horrible players. Shaq and Kobe made them look good but the second any of them left the Lakers they looked like trash.

Duncan has some of the greatest role players one could ask for.... has there ever been a better role playing perimeter defender than Bowen? Parker and Ginobili?

Seeing that Shaq was traded for Odom and Butler, I and probably every other Laker fan out there would gladly swap them for Parker and Ginobili.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#149 » by Bgil » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:37 pm

NYK 455 wrote:Kobe Bryant was not the best player on the Laker threepeat. Of course he was important, he was the second option, but he wasn't the man. Those rings don't hold the same value as Duncan or Shaqs rings. He's only got one ring as the man, that isn't enough to put him in the same category as Duncan and Shaq, who were more dominant and led their teams to more success. It's like arguing Pippen over Hakeem in the 90s because he had more rings.


So the guy taking the most shots, taking virtually all the shots down the stretch, and running the team in close games, and leading the team in playoff win shares (not that I like that stat but you guys seem to) is the second option?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html


FYI, Kobe was also the best player on the team in 2003 and 2004.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#150 » by V for Vendetta » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:43 pm

I really like watching Lebron and Kobe. But I am starting to hate them because of their fanboys.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#151 » by mysticbb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:51 pm

Bgil wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html

FYI, Kobe was also the best player on the team in 2003 and 2004.


Which player was more important to the team? I can give you a hint: Lakers with O'Neal and without Bryant from 1999 to 2004 (only years in which Bryant was a starter) 30-10, Lakers with Bryant and without O'Neal 23-26. The Lakers were a 62 wins team without Bryant, and a 39 wins team without Shaquille O'Neal. I don't think there is a much better argument than the reality to show which player was the reason for the Lakers success.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#152 » by Dat Pass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:57 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Bgil wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html

FYI, Kobe was also the best player on the team in 2003 and 2004.


Which player was more important to the team? I can give you a hint: Lakers with O'Neal and without Bryant from 1999 to 2004 (only years in which Bryant was a starter) 30-10, Lakers with Bryant and without O'Neal 23-26. The Lakers were a 62 wins team without Bryant, and a 39 wins team without Shaquille O'Neal. I don't think there is a much better argument than the reality to show which player was the reason for the Lakers success.


Lets see here.. the backup for Shaq was.. Umm.. Wait.. Lemme look it up..

The starting lineup when Shaq was out was Fisher/Kobe/Fox/Madsen/Medvendenko.. Or Samaki Walker. Wow, its shocking that they struggled without Shaq. :roll:

In fact, its pretty damn impressive Kobe won any games with their only bigs being some sick combo of Samaki/Medvedenko and Mark Madsen.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#153 » by Bgil » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:01 pm

mysticbb wrote:
Bgil wrote:http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2001.html

FYI, Kobe was also the best player on the team in 2003 and 2004.


Which player was more important to the team? I can give you a hint: Lakers with O'Neal and without Bryant from 1999 to 2004 (only years in which Bryant was a starter) 30-10, Lakers with Bryant and without O'Neal 23-26. The Lakers were a 62 wins team without Bryant, and a 39 wins team without Shaquille O'Neal. I don't think there is a much better argument than the reality to show which player was the reason for the Lakers success.


They won 39 games in a season in which their top 3 players only played 46 games together and the coach quit halfway through the season.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#154 » by Quincy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:07 pm

Yeah, Kobe being the second option to Shaq is overblown. While true, Kobe might be the greatest second option ever. The man was averaging 27-30 points a game, could get down with his man defensively, and was the most clutch player in the league. Let's not make this point that he was the equivalent to Hakeem or Duncan's second option during there sucess. He was a top 5 player during the dynasty stretch and has continued to be one after it.

You can't replace him with any SG in the league contrary to belief. While McGrady, Vince, and Iverson may have comparable stats, Kobe literally put the team on his back and carried it countless times through 00-04.

Kobe was never as dominant as a prime Shaq, granted. But Prime Shaq only lasted four seasons at the most through an award for a debate which consists of TEN seasons. Kobe was the best player in the league from 03-04 through 06-07. Add that to the fact that Kobe played an unparralled role in three championship seasons, 07-08 is when LeBron started to cement his place.

Over a span that consists of 00-10, Kobe>Shaq. Period. No one is saying Shaq wasn't number one guy in LA or that Kobe>Prime Shaq. This debates criteria is which player sustained dominance over a decade. Shaq hasn't. Kobe and Duncan have. The real argument is between Duncan and Kobe.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#155 » by mysticbb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:07 pm

Ball Boy wrote:Lets see here.. the backup for Shaq was.. Umm.. Wait.. Lemme look it up..

The starting lineup when Shaq was out was Fisher/Kobe/Fox/Madsen/Medvendenko.. Or Samaki Walker. Wow, its shocking that they struggled without Shaq. :roll:


Yeah, and Shaq had to play with 36 year old Mitch Richmond or the one and only Kareem Rush instead of Bryant. Honestly, Shaq's replacement was rather bad, but it was the same for Bryant's. The difference is that a great center has a bigger impact than a great wing player. And that is the reason why the Lakers won those titles, because they not only had the best player in the game on their team, but the guy was also a center.

And overall I guess you got the point, Shaquille O'Neal was more important to the three peat Lakers than Bryant.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#156 » by Dat Pass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:11 pm

mysticbb wrote:And overall I guess you got the point, Shaquille O'Neal was more important to the three peat Lakers than Bryant.


No one is going to say that.. The problem is us "Kobe supporters" hate hearing that Kobe wasnt the best player, therefore doesnt deserve any credit.

The bottom line is, Kobe was arguably the greatest "2nd option" of All-Time during the Lakers 5 years of success. Then during the 2nd half of the decade, as soon as he got another All-Star in the lineup, his team immediately made it to back-to-back Finals.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#157 » by D Nice » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:12 pm

No, you only see it like this, because you can't remember how dominant Duncan was in comparison to Bryant at the start of the decade. That is pretty obvious due to your comment about Shaquille O'Neal.

O'Neal was All NBA 1st in the last decade 7 times! Bryant has the same amount of All NBA 1st appearances. O'Neal has 8 All NBA awards, he got those in 80% of the possible years. Some people have James ahead of him despite the fact that James hasn't even played in as many years as Shaq has All NBA 1st team honors.
So I'm a crazy fan who thinks Kobe is the best at everything because my opinion is different. Awesome. Also, what Shaq comment are you referring to?

And I'm not going to get into a statistical argument before, because I've had the exact same discussions with Bastillion regarding KG. Kobe's numbers were skewed playing with Shaq, and that translates into advanced metrics as well.

Bryant failed in the 04 finals because he was involved in that melodrama with Shaq, but even so making the finals > getting sent him early. In 08 he went up against one of the all-time great defensive teams, even better than the Piston teams that used to contain Duncan with one player. Kobe, btw, was routinely being trippled and hacked during the Boston series. Duncan got a lot of scrapes against Detroit too, but the doubles used against him were sporadic at best.

If you put Kobe in a Lebron, Duncan, etc position (where he was the franchise player from the get-go) then his resume would look a lot different. You your reasons for choosing Duncan and that's fine, but the numbers don't really do Kobe justice for his contribution to the 3-peat.

If numbers were everything, Robinson would be > Duncan, and on Hakeem's level, but he isn't, and everybody can SEE it. Kobe's averaging what, 30/6/5 without Shaq? Extrapolate that from 2001-onward and I have a feeling a lot of people would view Kobe differently.

And you claim to have your opinion grounded in emprical data, yet you arbitrarily used random GM/player surveys to make your point. Those same player/GM surveys (which I personally weigh heavily) have ranked Kobe's clutch play at the top of the league repeatedly, affirmed his defensive standing as one of the best on the wing, and had him pegged as the best in the league from 06 to 09. The "beginning a franchise" is not NEARLY the same as "who is the best," as position, age, etc weigh heavily in those decisions (IE it's much harder to find a good 7 footer than a good wing.)
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#158 » by CB-Blazer » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:15 pm

Duncan is my choice but Kobe/Shaq each have a small piece of the pie.

I wondering how different this would be if Duncan had played with Kobe.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#159 » by Quincy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:35 pm

mysticbb wrote:And overall I guess you got the point, Shaquille O'Neal was more important to the three peat Lakers than Bryant.
No one's disputing this. But Kobe's role on that dynasty team PLUS everything he did after until now>what Shaq did then and now.

For the decade, Kobe>Shaq. Not career-wise, just for this decade.
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Re: Player of The Decade? 

Post#160 » by mysticbb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:38 pm

Ball Boy wrote:No one is going to say that.. The problem is us "Kobe supporters" hate hearing that Kobe wasnt the best player, therefore doesnt deserve any credit.


Well, saying that Bryant doesn't deserve any credit is also just plain wrong, you are right on this one. He was an important player, more important than just a 2nd option or sidekick. But in the end Duncan was more important to the 2007 Spurs title than Bryant to the 2000 or 2001 title. And that still leaves us with two finals MVP for Duncan and one for Bryant. You can't just say that Bryant has 4 titles and Duncan 3 during those 10 years and make that an argument for Bryant being better than Duncan.

D Nice wrote:So I'm a crazy fan who thinks Kobe is the best at everything because my opinion is different. Awesome.


No, that's not what I said. I only wanted to make a point with the stuff about James and Shaquille O'Neal. The things happened in 2008 or 2009 are more in people's mind than that what happened in 2000 or 2001. People seem to forget pretty fast.

D Nice wrote:Also, what Shaq comment are you referring to?


Your comment about Shaq wasn't a factor for 4 seasons. That is hardly true, because he got 7 All NBA 1st team awards.

D Nice wrote:And I'm not going to get into a statistical argument before, because I've had the exact same discussions with Bastillion regarding KG. Kobe's numbers were skewed playing with Shaq, and that translates into advanced metrics as well.


Well, you would lose this argument, that is the reason. Bryant scored 29.5 ppg on .527 ts% without Shaq, he played more minutes in those games and the Lakers played a little bit faster without Shaq. That pretty means that Bryant's PER wouldn't change. The Lakers also went 23-26 without Shaq, which means even with a higher percentage of the team's win shares the number would go down overall.
Bryant also would have less titles, less All Defense teams, less All NBA 1st teams. His overall resume would rather go down than up without Shaquille O'Neal.

D Nice wrote:If numbers were everything, Robinson would be > Duncan, and on Hakeem's level, but he isn't, and everybody can SEE it.


Actually, you can't just look at the numbers of the regular season in that case. Robinson is not on Duncan's or Olajuwon's level, because he failed to deliver in the playoffs. Duncan's and Olajuwon's PER and Win Shares in the playoffs are much better than Robinson's. That is the reason I included the playoff numbers. If Duncan would be worse in the playoffs, it would be a good argument for Bryant, but in fact it is the other way around. Duncan's numbers are going up in the playoffs, Bryant's are going down.

D Nice wrote:And you claim to have your opinion grounded in emprical data, yet you arbitrarily used random GM/player surveys to make your point.


Yes, I just used it to make a point, I didn't build my opinion on those surveys. But you got the point.

Quincy wrote:For the decade, Kobe>Shaq. Not career-wise, just for this decade.


Oh, yes, that is true. The only argument for Shaquille O'Neal ahead of Bryant is O'Neal's peak. But the difference is closer than most people think.

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