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Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread

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Post#641 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:29 am by uga_dawgs24

Can we come up with a response that we post whenever Gasol to Atlanta is proposed so we can just post it.
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Post#642 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:02 am by Jajwanda

If it does happen it'll be quite the upset. That said I'm not going to try to convince you of the deal, but it's incorrect to think he wouldn't work next to Horford. They'd be excellent together.

A three-way deal might do it though. Who would Atlanta want for Josh?
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Post#643 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:47 am by MaceCase

Jajwanda wrote:If it does happen it'll be quite the upset. That said I'm not going to try to convince you of the deal, but it's incorrect to think he wouldn't work next to Horford. They'd be excellent together.

A three-way deal might do it though. Who would Atlanta want for Josh?

I've thought of Houston as a good partner because they did want Pau last year as part of the CP3 fiasco and it would help them to consolidate their overabundance of PFs. Atlanta on the other hand, instead of picking up Pau who would most likely not fit into any future plans would turn Smith into younger cheaper Forwards.

So,

Smith and Daequan Cook to LA.

Pau to Houston.

But because of their salaries right now being so low and having to counter Pau's incoming deal, literally all of Terrence Jones, Marcus Morris, Donatas Motiejunas, Cole Aldrich and Royce white would have to be thrown in the deal.

Hypothetically that is not a bad haul at all for the Hawks. Realistically it's doubtful that Houston would burn all of their young prospects like that for Pau even though I think he's exactly what they need to push up to a higher tier playoff team. He gives them a post scoring threat, better size in their frontcourt and they can reduce Harden's and Lin's offensive load by running sets through him. He'd also be a calming vet with experience. They'd still maintain a good enough amount of capspace the next offseason and maybe them getting back their pick(s) from Atlanta would get them to bite.

For Atlanta they get a shot blocking Center in Aldrich which fans will like, a 7 foot stretch 4 in Motiejunas which Ferry would love (Dukie/San Antonio wet dream), two athletic tweeners that can actually shoot and then Royce White who if he ever get's his **** together possesses all of Smith's skillsets but for now is just a throwaway that has burned his bridges.
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Post#644 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:20 pm by parson

If Aldrich were what you're claiming, I'd have to believe that OKC would have started him over Perkins.

By trading Smith, we're giving up on any chance of getting Dwight Howard. Sure, some will laugh at that but why not at least TRY?

Also, it's worth a king's ransom to LA to guarantee that they keep Howard. They'd have to pony up much more than a 32- year old, $19 million good-but-not-close-to-great Gasol.

I love Asik's game. If we give up the hope of Howard and neglect to get Asik, why even bother?
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Post#645 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:47 pm by parson

Another argument for waiting: if Dwight Howard DOES re-sign with the Lakers, we can easily SNT Smith to them then.
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Post#646 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:57 pm by MaceCase

parson wrote:Another argument for waiting: if Dwight Howard DOES re-sign with the Lakers, we can easily SNT Smith to them then.

Nope. Teams over the lux tax can no longer receive sign and traded players.

Players themselves don't receive any benefit from sign and trades any more to bother with them.

So really, you want to gamble on Dwight while facing severely limited options with Josh once he's a FA? Good luck with that.
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Post#647 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:52 pm by parson

Gamble on Dwight or take Gasol and be right back where we were with Joe - good, but never great.

My way also gambles on Smith "getting it" finally. There is at least a chance he will.
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Post#648 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:13 pm by MaceCase

I would seriously love to know where I mentioned us taking Pau. I turned Josh into 5 prospects, you know, guys with actual potential unlike 9 year vets.
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Post#649 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:31 pm by azuresou1

Josh Smith is 9 years into his NBA career. He is what he is. Let's not pretend he's suddenly going to be a self-aware player who plays to his strengths.

If Morey calls me offering me that package of players, I'm taking it.
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Post#650 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:19 am by Jajwanda

There's no reason for you take Gasol. However as the playoff hunt emerges I could very well see a team taking on the last year of Pau's deal to have a nice playoff run. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Minnesota, and Houston are not cities that attract FAs very often but they're in the playoff hunt right now.

Monta Ellis?
Al Jefferson?

Jefferson would be a nice fit with Horford as a 4-5, plus he is an expiring so you get to try out the fit to see if it works for you.
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Post#651 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:56 am by ATLHawksfan21

Jajwanda wrote:There's no reason for you take Gasol. However as the playoff hunt emerges I could very well see a team taking on the last year of Pau's deal to have a nice playoff run. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Minnesota, and Houston are not cities that attract FAs very often but they're in the playoff hunt right now.

Monta Ellis?
Al Jefferson?

Jefferson would be a nice fit with Horford as a 4-5, plus he is an expiring so you get to try out the fit to see if it works for you.


No thanks. Ellis and Jefferson aren't the type of players that will make a team a contender.
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Post#652 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:03 am by ATL Boy

ATLHawksfan21 wrote:
Jajwanda wrote:There's no reason for you take Gasol. However as the playoff hunt emerges I could very well see a team taking on the last year of Pau's deal to have a nice playoff run. Milwaukee, Cleveland, Minnesota, and Houston are not cities that attract FAs very often but they're in the playoff hunt right now.

Monta Ellis?
Al Jefferson?

Jefferson would be a nice fit with Horford as a 4-5, plus he is an expiring so you get to try out the fit to see if it works for you.


No thanks. Ellis and Jefferson aren't the type of players that will make a team a contender.

Agreed and those will both be Free Agents this summer, I have no interest in Ellis at all but I think if he takes a reasonable deal that we can sign Jefferson
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Post#653 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:52 pm by parson

MaceCase wrote:I would seriously love to know where I mentioned us taking Pau. I turned Josh into 5 prospects, you know, guys with actual potential unlike 9 year vets.

You didn't mention Gasol. I was summarizing the options as I see them. I don't think much of your "5 prospects" idea. It leaves us with 5 talents who are each worse than Smith. Each player is a prospect to - at best - become a starter, not an allstar. 4 PFs and a Center? You're only giving one of the PFs a chance to develop into anything interesting - and I already told you that Aldrich didn't impress OKC. Essentially, you're trading for bench players.
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Post#654 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:29 pm by MaceCase

parson wrote:
MaceCase wrote:I would seriously love to know where I mentioned us taking Pau. I turned Josh into 5 prospects, you know, guys with actual potential unlike 9 year vets.

You didn't mention Gasol. I was summarizing the options as I see them. I don't think much of your "5 prospects" idea. It leaves us with 5 talents who are each worse than Smith. Each player is a prospect to - at best - become a starter, not an allstar. 4 PFs and a Center? You're only giving one of the PFs a chance to develop into anything interesting - and I already told you that Aldrich didn't impress OKC. Essentially, you're trading for bench players.

Yes, because I hold your judgement of talent in high esteem. You know, where you write off 3rd year, 2nd year and rookie prospects as having nothing more to hope for than becoming a starter at best but 9th year vet Josh? Oh that boy still got hope to "get it". Hypocrisy, thy name is Parson.
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Post#655 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:49 pm by parson

And anger, vitriol and sarcasm, thy name is ....

I simply said they don't appeal to me ... that they look like lousy prospects .... that they are a poor return for Smith. I also gave arguments for my opinion. Maybe you'd care to defend your 5 prospects?
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Post#656 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:42 am by MaceCase

No, you need to set up a basis as for why you consider them "lousy" prospects. The burden of proof is on you. Are they not younger that Josh? Were they not selected before or right around where Josh was selected in the draft? Is that not a sign of greater than or comparable potential? In the case of Aldrich and Morris are they not putting up comparable stats in their 3rd and 2nd season than Josh is in his 9th? Doesn't that allow for the discussion of them having further potential to improve from there? Are they not immensely cheaper than Josh is now and whatever he'll be asking for come next year?

But oh, you consider them lousy.....based on what exactly? Oh yea, you like Josh is why. The most quantifiable argument ever but really, what else?


Here's a news flash also. These are the only guaranteed Hawks past 2013:

Al Horford (All Star/All NBA C)
Louise Williams (6th man guard)
John Jenkins (sophomore scoring guard selected 23rd, projected in the second round)

But you are somehow trying to argue that Morris and Jones who can play both SF and PF, then Motiejunas who can play PF and C but shoot like a SF, Aldrich who can play C and then a throwaway of Royce White who if not for an anxiety issue already possesses Josh's repertoire won't have a chance to develop? Really?

Here:

X
Louis Williams/John Jenkins
Marcus Morris/Terrence Jones
Donatas Motiejunas/ Royce White
Al Horford/ Cole Aldich

Looks like plenty minutes abound. You also set up this thing called competition to determine who is displaying the best chance to become something greater.

Then your Aldrich argument. Yea, OKC traded him as cap filler with that other guy they weren't impressed by. Not like they traded for Kendrick Perkins and extended him for 40 million during Aldrich's rookie year. So he had big money Perkins, vets in Mohammed and Collison to play behind not to mention previous picks Mullens (who OKC also gave up for a sandwich) and Ibaka to try and get time over. Yea, definitive argument right there, not like we have these things called stats to go by or anything. I mean, yea. Let's play the "OKC thinks you're something" game. OKC signed Hasheem Thabeet and Daniel Orton, that's definitive proof right there that those guys are something.
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Post#657 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:45 pm by parson

You get so angry whenever people disagree with you. Can't I just disagree without you spewing acid?

However:
MaceCase wrote:No, you need to set up a basis as for why you consider them "lousy" prospects. The burden of proof is on you. Are they not younger that Josh?

"Younger" means they're better prospects than Smith? Does not sound right to me. I would assume there'd be more than just youth involved. Talent, maybe? But you don't seem to be concerned with that. At least, you're not talking about their respective talents.
MaceCase wrote:Were they not selected before or right around where Josh was selected in the draft? Is that not a sign of greater than or comparable potential?

Absolutely not. Kobe Bryant was drafted 16th overall. Are you saying that your 5 have "greater than or comparable potential"? Draft position means little when different years have different values to the draft classes. There are good draft years and poor draft years. Do they have the talent of Kobe Bryant? Do they have the talent of Josh Smith? Nope.
MaceCase wrote:In the case of Aldrich and Morris are they not putting up comparable stats in their 3rd and 2nd season than Josh is in his 9th? Doesn't that allow for the discussion of them having further potential to improve from there?

Are you counting the stats from the time Aldrich spent in the Developmental League? I don't know if I ever saw Smith in the DL.
MaceCase wrote:Are they not immensely cheaper than Josh is now and whatever he'll be asking for come next year?

Inferior players are usually cheaper.
MaceCase wrote:But oh, you consider them lousy.....based on what exactly?

What I see of their talent and what I've read of scouts' opinion of their talent.
MaceCase wrote: Oh yea, you like Josh is why.
Can I deduce, since you believe I have to be a Josh Smith lover to hold my opinion, that you are the opposite? Isn't it reasonable, that if you insult my intelligence and say my likes determine my opinion, that your hates determine yours?

You can call the 4 PFs 3/4s or 4/5s but they're PFs. That's their best position. That's where they are most likely to develop - and developing is what "prospects" are all about, right? It's not reasonable to talk about their potential if you're not going to play them where they can be best used. You are trading for 4 PFs and one Center. It seems likely to me that at least 3 of the 4 PFs are not going to develop at their best position.

As for Aldrich, if he cannot beat out Perkins, then he is not a major prospect. Maybe he (as I posted earlier) can grow into a starter at Center but I don't see anything that leads me to think he'll ever be above-average, and that's at best.

Morris has "the shortest wingspan of any power forward drafted in the first round according to" the DraftExpress database. That's shortest of all PFs EVER drafted.

Royce White is a mess: poor athlete, too short for PF, waaaay too heavy for SF with a mental disability and a pitiful attitude. The guy's talking about walking away from the NBA. Really, Mace?

Now, Patrick Patterson is a decent prospect. I'll grant that.
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Post#658 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:04 pm by MaceCase

parson wrote:You get so angry whenever people disagree with you. Can't I just disagree without you spewing acid?

Don't confuse your own sensitivity with others being emotional.

"Younger" means they're better prospects than Smith? Does not sound right to me. I would assume there'd be more than just youth involved. Talent, maybe? But you don't seem to be concerned with that. At least, you're not talking about their respective talents.

Youth and experience are directly correlated to potential, I'm not surprised that this fact of science and nature has escaped you. The fact that you are creating a bold faced lie as to me considering their talents...what all of my mentionings of performance and draft position (a determinant of performance and potential) meant nothing?
Absolutely not. Kobe Bryant was drafted 16th overall. Are you saying that your 5 have "greater than or comparable potential"? Draft position means little when different years have different values to the draft classes. There are good draft years and poor draft years. Do they have the talent of Kobe Bryant? Do they have the talent of Josh Smith? Nope.

So please then, if you are going to make the argument of draft years then don't stop. Actually make a point on their individual years and the circumstances surrounding them. You follow such a vague argument with such a definitive statement on talent. Really? What was Josh projected as because I remember clearly him being mentioned as most likely to bust at the moment he was selected.
Are you counting the stats from the time Aldrich spent in the Developmental League? I don't know if I ever saw Smith in the DL.

Josh Smith's 2012 PER: 12.9
Cole Aldrich's 2012 PER: 12.7
Why no mention of the season that stumpy armed Morris is having? What about the direct matchup he had against Smith?
.
Inferior players are usually cheaper.

No, this is just an inferior argument. Rookies follow a pay scale bellow that of vets.

Can I deduce, since you believe I have to be a Josh Smith lover to hold my opinion, that you are the opposite? Isn't it reasonable, that if you insult my intelligence and say my likes determine my opinion, that your hates determine yours?

As with all of your deductions they are downright terrible. You've reached a definitive stance a dozen times based throughout that goes against all logic, common sense and probability. Someone makes an argument utilizing those things......clear it was born entirely of hate.

You can call the 4 PFs 3/4s or 4/5s but they're PFs. That's their best position. That's where they are most likely to develop - and developing is what "prospects" are all about, right? It's not reasonable to talk about their potential if you're not going to play them where they can be best used. You are trading for 4 PFs and one Center. It seems likely to me that at least 3 of the 4 PFs are not going to develop at their best position.

Right, so despite their draft profiles determining them as tweeners (like Josh who for some reason Parson believes can be a SF) you have already made the determination for where they can fit? See what I talk about being a major hypocrite? You don't notice because your homerism blinds you.

As for Aldrich, if he cannot beat out Perkins, then he is not a major prospect. Maybe he (as I posted earlier) can grow into a starter at Center but I don't see anything that leads me to think he'll ever be above-average, and that's at best.

You don't see anything that would lead you to positive opinion on Aldrich yet you stand by the most asinine reasons. "Oh, a rookie big man can't get time over a highly paid veteran? Scrub"

Morris has "the shortest wingspan of any power forward drafted in the first round according to" the DraftExpress database. That's shortest of all PFs EVER drafted.

So his wingspan is a determinant of his talent now? Explain his season then.

Royce White is a mess: poor athlete, too short for PF, waaaay too heavy for SF with a mental disability and a pitiful attitude. The guy's talking about walking away from the NBA. Really, Mace?

Really Parson, my mentioning that he's a throwaway filler in the deal didn't register to you the twice that I said it?

Now, Patrick Patterson is a decent prospect. I'll grant that.

Did I mention him? Where's Motiejunas?
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Post#659 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:49 pm by parson

MaceCase wrote:
parson wrote:You get so angry whenever people disagree with you. Can't I just disagree without you spewing acid?

Don't confuse your own sensitivity with others being emotional.

. . . . .
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Post#660 Re: Atlanta Hawks Official Trade Ideas Thread
Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:16 pm by MaceCase

Great rebuttal.
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